'44 D2 5J Starting Problems...

[doc_dozer]

My D2 was delivered today :D , now I have some questions.
The pony seems to need a little choke, so I know I have to clean the carb out, otherwise it ran ok. The bigger problem is the starting clutch. It doesn't go over center. I had to hold the pinion lever up, and hold the clutch forward to crank the diesel. It was cold today so I wore out my arms during warm up. :eek: Someone else had to move the compression releas and then the throttle for me.
So, Any ideas why the clutch lever won't go forward?
Also, seem the right brake pedal is no working. It will flop to the floor if I push on it. I didn't try the left.
Still, I can't wait to play....

Charley

[Jack]

Sombody probably tightened up the clutch adjustment too tight. Try backing it off a couple holes first. Not as hard as it sounds. Take out the filler plug and lift the button with a screwdriver or such and hold it while you turn the flywheel with your other hand--screw the clutch out of the spider.

The pinion not latching is common. Probably the hooks are worn, or springs under the hooks shot, or shaft worn, or any combination of those.

Brake pedal probably the operating/adjusting rod broke. Not hard to fix from underneath. Remove the pedal housing you can get at it. Drive up on railroad ties or such for some working room under there. Be dead certain it's stable. If it falls on you it'll hurt plenty.

Mine's a 41 D2 5J. Great little machine. I can't think of a time it has failed to start and do the job for which it was intended. Have fun,

Jack

[doc_dozer]

Thanks Jack, I will try that. I am thinking of pulling the assembly to look at it. The manual says something about loosening up the pony and raising it. It's not clear if that is a big job or little one yet. It's too cold out to look at it right now.

Charley

[bernie]

Charley-Congratulations!

It sounds like your D2 and my D42T may be related. A link to my tractor is below. I have owned mine since May-2006. She is my first and only track tractor.

When I start my D42T I push the starting clutch with my left elbow and hold the starting pinion up with my left hand. I have developed a knack, so it works.

I think the adjustment that Jack is talking about does not require lifting the starting engine. Look at your Operators Manual if you have it and it details a pretty good procedure and has a very good picture. You go through the plug and use a screwdriver if I remember right. I have not adjusted mine yet and do not have my manuals with me.

One thing that I always remember when starting my D4 is that the starting engine does not recieve coolant unless the main is turning. I think I have read that the D2 is the same way. I do not let the starting engine run more than a minute or two before I begin cranking the main with the decompression lever in the start postion. I have carburetor woes as well, but she is starting and running now so I am happy. My starting pinion will stay engaged for a period until I get black smoke from the stack. Then she kicks out. That is why I hold up the pinion lever. I will address that over the spring sometime.

One other thing that I have only read in one place is that the flywheel on the starting engine can become loose if the aluminum plate behind the mounting nut is gone. It looks like you pull start your starting engine unless I am missing the starter somewhere. Do you have a starter on it or do you use a rope as it appears? I use a rope.

There is a great deal of info here on ACMOC. Get on the old board for research. I do not believe it is "here" yet. You will find it very helpful. I defer to most anyone on this board with my suggestions. I have learned a lot, but you will hit some real horsepower here.

Best of Luck and keep posting the photos. If you look for posts under the name of Bill Glenn, you will see many photos of his tractor. I spent about an hour one evening looking through them.

bernie

http://www.picturetrail.com/uid6748227

[Al Letts]

Guys,

The old board archives are still up, least till 12/31 when it is planned to have them migrate over to the new software site. You can access the old pages by going to the ACMOC homepage, there you will see the link for the archive. The Search mode still works on it. But time is limited.

Alan

[doc_dozer]

Thanks, Bernie ( and everyone else).

This is a rope start, and the pony starts pretty well. I have already searched on pony choke issues and will look into this as time permits. I will also adjust the start clutch as suggested. It annoys the heck out of me to have to hold the pinion in place for 5 minutes while warming the engine which is why i may just pull the whole thing. Otherwise it's still a pain when you are by yourself.

The D2 is like the D4 and the pony is not cooled until you are turning over the main. It's part of the preheat system to warm the main by taking the heat off the pony via the coolant. Actually a pretty clever setup.

More complicated than firing up modern diesels with glowplugs and electric starts but it's really cool to see the diesel start to fire and blow smoke rings then chug away... and to think I almost settled for a different yellow dozer because I didn't think I could find a Cat near me...

Charley

[bernie]

Hi Charley-
This may not have an effect, but turning the main for five minutes is longer than I experience with my D42T. I wonder if you have fuel problems. Injectors, pump, air, etc. You might post that as another thread and I would bet you will get several hits either telling you that is reasonable or what to look for. It might be that a shot of either will do the trick...like I said, I am learning big time, but five minutes seems a long time...under compression with the throttle pulled back.

You are right about the preheat. Those guys at CAT were on top of things.

Look also for archives on comments and remarks regarding the starting engine "thrills and woes". I cannot think of a single inanimate object that can cause as many emotions from grown men as a starting engine on these, (my), old CATS...again, I am just a beginner! But the damn thing has me hooked!

bernie

[ccjersey]

The pinion latches are "accessable" through a small cover on the clutch housing near the left brake pedal. About all you can do there is to adjust the kickout speed. There are two slotted head screws with cotter pins to secure them. Adjust each one a half turn at a time until you get the correct performance.

If the springs are missing/latches broken etc., you will have to either lift the pony up or pull the main engine and access it that way. Just depends on what all you need to do. If you needed to R and R the main clutch, for instance it would be easier to pull the engine and do both. Other than that, it's probably best to plan on pulling the pony completely so you can replace the gasket and be sure there are no leaks when you put it back down after you fix the pinion.

On the other hand, holding just the pinion in is a lot easier for a person with only 2 hands than what you 're going through now. Try adjusting the clutch correctly first. It doesn't typically have to have a real stiff "snap" to it to turn the main just fine.

I don't think 5 minutes turning the main under compression to warm it is excessive for an old engine. Even a new one, probably would require that in cold weather unless one wants to resort to ether. I'm not so proud, I swear by the stuff, but I know some swear at it instead.

Brake bands sometimes rust through from water in the bottom of the clutch housings when the drains aren't removed to drain or are plugged with dirt. Hope that yours is something else disconnected and not the band and all your repairs are minor

Have you checked the pinion clutch oil, injection pump oil, oiled the clutch release bearings, bevel gear housing, and finals. Also it's best to spend some time greasing rollers etc pretty early on.

Have fun!

I've got a '44 5J that is probably a parts machine for the '46

[doc_dozer]

I haven't been able to inspect and grease it yet. It was 9 degrees out yesterday morning and only made it to 35. All I have done so far is unload it and drive it 300 yards to park it. I won't be moving it again until I have checked all the fluids etc. I will adjust the starting clutch and pull the pinion shaft cover to look at it sometime in the next week.

Charley

[Jack]

I'm not sure on this, better verify with Old Magnet, but I think it was said on the old board that you could pull the starter drive assembly out toward the front of the tractor by removing the governor control housing. (?) You don't access all that much by lifting the pony engine and replacing the gasket between the pony and the diesel is a bit of a chore--cleaning, gooping, seating, etc. You can get a look at the pinion latch springs through that small two-bolt cover hole, but you'll have to move the firewall out of your way unless some previous service person has cut a chunk out of it like they did on mine.

See that the main bearings in the pony are tight first thing. Has nothing to do with the starter drive, but if they are loose the first thing they do is hammer the timing gears around until they break the end off the magneto shaft with expensive results.

Yes there are other things that can be wrong with brakes as stated. Broken rod is easiest to check through adjutment hole (down by your heel when you're on it), and easiest to fix. I've seen lining break up and just slip out of the band also. (On D7)

I'm a big believer in starting fluid. A pony rebuild is a major expense. Keep the cranking hours down if at all possible. Just have the diesel blowing smoke before you shoot the either in so it doesn't wash down the oil in the cylinders, and it only takes a sniff after maybe a minute of cranking.

And last, the pony gets considerable cooling by thermal syphoning even if the diesel is not turning IF the diesel block is COLD.

Your machine looks like a real diamond in the rough, and not all that rough!

Jack

[SJ]

In order to remove the starter pinion drive the starting engine has to be raised up out of the way as the drive gear on the pony keeps it from coming out.The governors are different on the 5J than the 4U & 5U D2s so you may or may have to remove the cover on the governor. I don,t have a parts book to look it up but try first without disturbing the gov. then if it needs to come apart then do it. Been too many years since I worked on one so not sure about the gov.cover needing to be removed.

[Jack]

OK, SJ, that makes sense. I just couldn't remember the procedure.

Jack

[Dozerman51]

You need to remove the Governor before removing the starter pinion and clutch assembly from the flywheel housing. This gives you plenty of room to pull it out. Believe me, I know from doing it numerous times.

[bernie]

Charley-
There is a very good thread on how the starting engine recieves coolant. Hit the old site and you should be able to find it. It discusses the thermal syphon very well.

bernie

[SJ]

Bernie the D6 starting engines has a small belt driven water pump on them to circulate the coolant & is about the only engines with one that I recall.The only ones I dealt with were the D4600 & the D318 engines used in the the D6s & the industrial version of them.

[bernie]

SJ-
I did not know that. The thread I was refering to was for the D4 initially but the D2 came into the discussion too I think. I just tried to access the thread on the old board and could not get it to hit on anything. I may be mistaken and it might have appeared on the ACME board. I will check that too and try and provide Charley a link.

It spoke of the thermal syphon that Jack mentioned. The explanation given made a lot of sense. I just was not sure that it was conclusive that it was correct.

What horsepower would the D4600 or the D318 starting engine crank over to the main? Were they two cylinder also? Why did the D4600 and D318 utilize a water pump? Did the horsepower cause them to overheat faster or did they need to idle without the main turning for an extended period???

http://www.antiquecaterpillar.net/ACF_v2/showthread.php?t=6399&highlight=pony+cooling




bernie

[doc_dozer]

Great help, Thanks! Other farm chores ( fencing) and my day job have kept me from diving in too deep yet, but hopefully I can explore more of it this week. Although there is wood to cut and my wife wants....
Charley

[SJ]

Bernie the D4600 & D318 starting engines were basically the same style as the D2 & D4 but was bigger with the mag. put on a little different. The D4s are a 2.750" bore & the D6s are 3.125"so why the water pump on the D318 I have no idea unless it being bigger & builds up more heat than the smaller one but I really don,t have the answer why.

[bernie]

Thanks SJ-
bernie

[ccjersey]

Bernie,
The smaller pony is 10hp and the larger D6 is 15. Not sure about the waterpump. I've never looked at any of the vertical cylinder ponies for the D7/D8 or I believe the D9 had a horizontally opposed twin, but bigger than the D6 again.....don't know if any of them had waterpumps. Maybe being vertical designs the thermosiphon or convection cooling worked better than in the wide flat horizontal ponies.

[SJ]

The D7-8-& 9s all had the same starting engine & they were a vertical engine & no water pump. The engine that had a bigger horizonal starting engine than the D6 was the old D17000 V8 industrial engine same bore 5 3/4" as the d7 & D8 diesels had.You know I can,t remember for sure if the D17000 starting engine had a water pump or not but I can,t just remember one on them.I don,t have a parts book to check it out for sure.