D4D minor repairs

[Richard~J~W]

Did you ever start a job and wonder where it will end?

Well, here's my story......as some of you may know I bought a D4D with the intention of keeping it, doing it up and using it for shows and a bit of entertainment around the farm (simple pleasures for some of us :thumb: )

So as free time allowed, which is twice a year on holidays, I have been steadily doing bits to it, over Christmas I noticed some unusual ticking noise in the rear l.h. final drive.....what to do?.....no-one will want a poorly tractor other than a scrap-man......so having spoken to the oracle (T.C.) we decided it wasn't really that much to repair......although I don't have the pullers/press and could really do with a practical transmission training course.

So in I went, today you can see we pulled off the sprockets, pulled out 1 dead shaft and the pinion shaft flanges.

When I opened up the l.h. cover I noticed the nut to be more or less finger tight and missing the two staking pins which prevent it from undoing......they were also missing on the r.h. side but at least the nut was murder tight.

So with all this apart I notice some end-float on the pinion shaft.....so we pulled the transmission out.....while there I thought I would pull out the clutch out-put shaft seal, as I did the output shaft bearing collapsed!

What's left to do now? well, apart from a hefty parts bill which will probably put Royal Bank of Scotland profits up, there's the clutch cover to pull off and equaliser bar to drop down and re-bush.

Here's a few of the many photos from the last week or so......as they say, stripping it down is half the job......

Before the job.......

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/D4D88A47819.jpg

Thanks to TC for the technology and the knowledge! :thumb:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/pullers.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/d42.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/d422.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/d4222.jpg

Notice the dead-shaft is at about 2 o'clock

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/d42222.jpg

Diff pinion bearings worn

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/d422222.jpg

Clutch bearing assy

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/d42222222.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/d4222222.jpg

And tonight it looks like this....... :jaw:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/d422222222.jpg

[Old Magnet]

All I can say is WOW!!! and tip my hat......and I'll bet you haven't looked into the engine yet.

Your fortunate to have tc on hand to help you through the troubles.

[d4c24a]

looks like your in for the long haul on that ,will be well worth it when its done
that TC certainly likes to rip them to bits in a short time ,and i bet you've had a good laugh too :lol:

cheers graham

[Mervyn Pepper]

Hi Richard.
About 2 yrs ago i had a 78A D4D that was looking exactly like that. Although my deadshafts were straight and bullgear was intact; pinions thru hardning tho.
In your case tho I would update my pinion and bullgear to the heavier 7K4771 gear and 7k4770 pinion, that came out on later D4Ds, or maybe even the later 4v2744 and 48 gears from D4Es. Would pay to price all this out tho first, see how the numbers stack up. I ended up putting pirate italian pinions in mine, was cheapest fix.
The pinion brgs are a major expense, but i was lucky enough to convert all the cat nos to original Bower part nos.
2M0533 = MR7309
2M0534 = M7309
8B2570 = M1311CH
8B2571 = MU1311V
5K8591 = M1311EAL
3B3969 = MR1311.
I also had to replce all the trans brgs and clutch output shaft brg; you,ll have to pull clutch for this; so do it before you put the trans back in. And while your in there I did my rear crankshaft seal.
I also put a low gear 1st and 2nd gearset in it to give it some more balls too, but should have changed 3 4 5 while i was at it. 89A 951s used the swampy D4D gearset, so if you can find a wrecked one of these you,ll be in luck.
Good luck with your project. merv

[Mervyn Pepper]

23781some more23780

[zootownjeepguy]

Here in the States we call it "the Snowball effect". Once the snowball starts rolling it just becomes bigger & bigger. We all know how it starts. "Well as long as I'm this far, may as well do that too".:lol: The trick is knowing when to stop (with me it's when my wallet's empty. I've already worn holes through two leather wallets with my D2).

[tctractors]

Gulp??, this is not doing my street cred any good Richard, people might be put off calling me to "Service" their beloved tractor, lets hope we can firstly find all the bits, then get it bolted up a bit rapid to not put off owners from letting me loose with CAT iron, I love the way the D series tractors come to bits in only a few hours???.

tctractors

[Richard~J~W]

All I can say is WOW!!! and tip my hat......and I'll bet you haven't looked into the engine yet.

Your fortunate to have tc on hand to help you through the troubles.

Will probably put some new injector tips on it.....but generally it seems (knock on wood) to start fine and run O.K.

[Richard~J~W]

looks like your in for the long haul on that ,will be well worth it when its done
that TC certainly likes to rip them to bits in a short time ,and i bet you've had a good laugh too :lol:

cheers graham

yes, I'm commited to the job now......no going back :thumb:

the plan is, if time allows, is to have the chassis sand-blasted and painted prior to re-assembling the big lumpy bits.....I've got about 3 weeks before I go back to work until Christmas

[Richard~J~W]

Hi Richard.
About 2 yrs ago i had a 78A D4D that was looking exactly like that. Although my deadshafts were straight and bullgear was intact; pinions thru hardning tho.
In your case tho I would update my pinion and bullgear to the heavier 7K4771 gear and 7k4770 pinion, that came out on later D4Ds, or maybe even the later 4v2744 and 48 gears from D4Es. Would pay to price all this out tho first, see how the numbers stack up. I ended up putting pirate italian pinions in mine, was cheapest fix.
The pinion brgs are a major expense, but i was lucky enough to convert all the cat nos to original Bower part nos.
2M0533 = MR7309
2M0534 = M7309
8B2570 = M1311CH
8B2571 = MU1311V
5K8591 = M1311EAL
3B3969 = MR1311.
I also had to replce all the trans brgs and clutch output shaft brg; you,ll have to pull clutch for this; so do it before you put the trans back in. And while your in there I did my rear crankshaft seal.
I also put a low gear 1st and 2nd gearset in it to give it some more balls too, but should have changed 3 4 5 while i was at it. 89A 951s used the swampy D4D gearset, so if you can find a wrecked one of these you,ll be in luck.
Good luck with your project. merv

many thanks for this Merv, tbh I think I'll go with it as it is.....although I like your thinking in reality the tractor will only do a bit of pushing around on the farm.

The plate on the back of the transmission group states it is 4K 30 not sure what configuration that means.......I read on here that there's several variations high speed, low speed, close ratio etc.

[Richard~J~W]

Here in the States we call it "the Snowball effect". Once the snowball starts rolling it just becomes bigger & bigger. We all know how it starts. "Well as long as I'm this far, may as well do that too".:lol: The trick is knowing when to stop (with me it's when my wallet's empty. I've already worn holes through two leather wallets with my D2).

Its a difficult balancing act with these old machines - where to draw the line.......mind you its satisfying to know you've done the job right

[tctractors]

Richard, I forgot to mention the getting home saga, (just so the other folk can understand my delema, Richards bolt hole is a round trip for me of nearly 340 miles)anyhow at about junction 24 of the M5 motorway things turned into a car park, no lanes moving sort of grid locked without the grid???, so I poked in a Motown disc into the landrover Juke Box and turned up the amps, next thing I found myself Jiving with one of the ladys in the next car in the middle lane to the Velvellettes "Needle in a Haystack", so yesterday was a great and perfect day for me, I had a cooked lunch a good crack at the old D4 plus a dance with a Lady on the way home, a Nectar day in my life.

tctractors

[Richard~J~W]

Richard, I forgot to mention the getting home saga, (just so the other folk can understand my delema, Richards bolt hole is a round trip for me of nearly 340 miles)anyhow at about junction 24 of the M5 motorway things turned into a car park, no lanes moving sort of grid locked without the grid???, so I poked in a Motown disc into the landrover Juke Box and turned up the amps, next thing I found myself Jiving with one of the ladys in the next car in the middle lane to the Velvellettes "Needle in a Haystack", so yesterday was a great and perfect day for me, I had a cooked lunch a good crack at the old D4 plus a dance with a Lady on the way home, a Nectar day in my life.

tctractors

Glad to hear you got back alright....this time of year the M5 can be a bit iffy with grockels (holiday-makers) jamming the place up

thanks again

[Richard~J~W]

When you refit the clutch housing do you fit the pressure plate to it hanging on thrust bearing lugs or put the cover on the flywheel and then try to locate the cross-shaft fork on the thrust bearings?........just looking at it this afternoon and think that fitting might not be quite so easy as removal

Also is there an easy way to extract the equaliser pin?

[Richard~J~W]

beginning the re-assembly now.....this bearing/seal carrier in the oil clutch has what I believe is an oil drain but drains to now-where, can someone just confirm that it should be at the bottom......or in fact the cavity between the seal & the bearing should be at the bottom

many thanks

Richard

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/IMG_3667.jpg

[Old Magnet]

I'm offering what I can, based on an early manual.

Assembly states reverse of disassembly, with no requirement to remove and replace the yoke.

Cross section drawing does show the drain passage on the bottom....along with a note "Make certain the oil passage in the cage mates with the oil passage in the flywheel clutch housing"

If you need to remove the yoke, it's a bit tricky. It is actually a two piece shaft. The lever end needs to be pushed into the yoke, the key removed from the shaft then that shaft pulled out. The other end of the shaft then needs to be pulled into the yoke, then the assembly removed. There is a 3/8 in. x 16 tpi hole in the end of the shaft to facilitate pulling.

Hope that helps.

[catsilver]

Check the feed from the pump Richard, oil feed is through the bearing carrier, into the shaft, and along the shaft to feed out between the clutch plates and lube the pilot bearing, although memory tells me the drain from the bearing housing is in the bottom. You can put the whole clutch back in one piece but its heavy, put the clutch itself back into the flywheel, make up a couple of guide studs with old .5" NC bolts. Take the pump out, put your guide studs in the top of the flywheel housing, then start the clutch housing over the studs and feed the 'squares' back into the yoke before pushing the cover on fully. Put the pump back, you took it out to avoid bending the shaft while nipping up the housing without the drive gear being properly aligned.
Its even more difficult standing inside a 951 in a water filled ditch because it rained since you parked over the ditch to make access easier!!

[tctractors]

See that Richard, catsilver is bang on the money, like I told you to always remove the oil pump from the case, this item is easy to damage without any trouble, I have seen the pump drive gear snapped off through rough fitting of the cover, anyhow good to see you are making some sort of head way on the project, I always remove the oil pump before undoing the cover bolts on all wet clutch set ups.
tctractors

p.s. the oil feed hole is the one you should be looking at, its simple to sort???, make sure the clutch is unscrewed a good bit when you bolt it up.

[Richard~J~W]

Thanks Old Magnet & Catsilver,

Well I went back after tea and had another look at this, as you say there's a supply that seems to come up from the pump to supply the bearings and as this lines up then also a drain at the seal end falls in to place in the downwards position.

I took that oil pump out, was advised to do this to avoid damaging the gear/pump during the installation, as you correctly say it seems to allow access up in under to those two square blocks on the cross-shaft....so fingers crossed tomorrow when we try installation.

Its one thing to do this with the gearbox out & tracks off heaven knows how you managed otherwise, you must have been standing on your head

[Richard~J~W]

See that Richard, catsilver is bang on the money, like I told you to always remove the oil pump from the case, this item is easy to damage without any trouble, I have seen the pump drive gear snapped off through rough fitting of the cover, anyhow good to see you are making some sort of head way on the project, I always remove the oil pump before undoing the cover bolts on all wet clutch set ups.
tctractors

synchronised typing :lol:

yes, I remembered what you said about that oil-pump :lol:

[tctractors]

Richard, I keep a photo with me always of a clutch I did on a D7 47a in a Quarry, in a swamp, in -10 temps, I had to dig a tunnel in from the back of the tractor to get the clutch out, it was a few years ago but it sticks in my head as one of the crap jobs I have done to earn a crust, the site Manager was a right DOG, when I asked if the tractor could be pushed out of the swamp, he just said to me " do it or clear off " work was a bit tight so I just put up with it, so your on the farm job is as good as it gets you lucky lad

[Mervyn Pepper]

You must have a far better temperment than me Tony. If anyone ever said that to me they would have been told to stuff it right up there proverbial and fix it thereselves. :smokin:
I can only hope you charged like a wounded bull, to make all your efforts worthwhile.
Cheers from the bottom of the world.
Merv

[tctractors]

Merv, I could tell you the fact that the clutch fault was nothing more than a bolt missing, but work was scarce and the Quarry Manager was nothing short of a "Pig" even to his own staff, so I stripped out the clutch sort of wiped it off then re-fitted it, but I can tell you it was a bit of a low point in my life to be treated in such a fashon, I always like to be happy with a smile and joke ready to burst out, then I had a young son and money owing on a House, now my son is 22 and a strapping chap, and I have NO money owing on anything, so things might be different now if the "Pig" was to grunt his order, I did post some pic's of the D7 under "Bill Glenns Classic Plant" title but I stopped posting under this line due to 1 or 2 people bitching about it, ( Bill loved it by the way)
always happy tctractors

[Mike Walsh]

TC. Those pictures are long gone. How about reposting the swamp cat when you get a chance.

[Richard~J~W]

So I pulled the head off this machine today

the liners are a little bit pitted.....symptomatic of corrosion over the years (I have always left it with a tin over the chimney)

In No.4 there's a bit of a line - i thought it was a crack but on closer inspection just looks like a surface erosion line.......anyone got anything to add?

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/liner2.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/Liner1.jpg


the main reason for opening up is the annoying habit of pushing oil out the exhaust mainly on 2 and 3.......you can see here from the exhaust valve out of 3 that it doesn't look like its sealing too well. The machine itself will starts up well, there's no blow-by coming out the breather.....but i just detect a very mild miss at times.......maybe i should wear ear plugs.....


http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/valve.jpg


this is no.2 liner

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/linerfrom2.jpg


Where at all possible i want to avoid having to put new liners etc in it ($ added to the $$$ already spent) and hoping that a head rework will be enough

[tctractors]

Hi Richard, wishing you and your Family a Super day tomorrow plus a Happy Healthy year ahead, today I was sucking out the pistons on a D342 (D8H) engine, this motor would put up an unusual bark on the over-run or when the clutch was dropped to shift speed, it sounded to me to be crank speed so the machine was eased off the bin (463) and parked in the main workshop (mud puddled yard) for myself to check out, it was a lucky job as its only a small end bearing gone "donk" but the motor is getting a new set of liners no messing,there is a few other issues with the engine but its only a time + gaskets thing so no big dollars, lucky for me I found another rod+piston ley in an old sump pan full of rain, so in it goes, I will fit new rings to all the pistons plus tart up the heads, this is what you should do to the D4 motor, liners are fairly cheap when you price them up, plus it gives you a chance to clean out the block of silt?? they are simple to poke in and if you phone J Moore's up the day after Boxing Day the phone will switch over to Chris in the parts who will sort things for you, we will be poping up their to fetch a set of liners as well so if the post is a snag we would collect anything for you, dont forget "No Foot no Horse" it also means "No engine no D4" its just Yard Art, call me if you need any help.

Blowing it on tctractors

p.s. Merv will dig out a snap of the D7 crap job thing.

[Richard~J~W]

Hi Tony, all the very best to you and your folks as well.

Thanks for the feedback, I was kind of afraid it would come to this.......anyway its beer-o-clock so hopefully that will renew my enthusiasm for the job

I have to say that its unfortunate I live so far away......I would love to come and lend a hand (kind of a work experience thing) on these engine jobs you do - sounds really interesting delving in to these things.....does that sound daft?....maybe it does. Anyway at the mo have enough here to do

have a good holiday

from the wet west country

[Mervyn Pepper]

Hi TC
Am a day ahead of you guys; [xmas day now] so am preparing for ny annual 'eating, drinking and sleeping' triathlon !! And of course, being merry !!
Richard, yes id put in new liners too. At the very least pull pistons and liners. Liners are often worse on the outside than inside too mate. So pull and inspect if only to replace the liner seals. is only 2 on this engine and they can leak. Bad news is saddle has to come out to pull sump.
If liners are ok, and 5 thou or less wear at top of ring travel a good hone with flexihone may clean then up and fit new rings. But price new liners and rings. You might be able to reuse pistons. There is wear info in the service manuel.
Much better to do it all now; you,ll be glad you did 5 years from now !! Put new valve guides in the head. Is thickness for valve stems in book. Although cat had updated specs for alot this. Can tell you but will have to look it all up; others on here will have later cat reusability guides than me; i left the nz cat dealer in 86.
Gotta go. Enjoy your xmas ! Merv34083 78A4848

[d4c24a]

i got liners from moores for my D4c ,very reasonable price from memory
mine had a bit of water damage :(

merry christmas to all :thumb:

cheers graham

[tctractors]

Hi Graham, Happy Christmas to you, John Moores Is actualy closed untill Jan the something, but the lads in the parts are willing to come in if needed to help things out, the man I am doing the D8H for asked me if I am having today off??? this only spurs me on to strip things out more, so I will defo' be pulling the clutch down, besides I love to look at them as they are some nice bits of engineering to play with.
Richard, after you have unbolted the Saddle, jack up the front and then place some timber packing off the Saddle to the Frame on both sides, just small chunks will do, then clear away the jacking stuff from the front so the job is simple, drain the engine oil before you jack owt' up mind as things can get in a mess.
tctractors

[Richard~J~W]

Hiya fellas, hope you all had a good christmas......I saw your D8H adventure over there on Channel 4 ( :lol: where the Ozzy BTD20 fan club hang out)

So have had a bit of flu lately so progress has been slow but as you described Tony I have jacked it up and it sits on some bits of 6x2 (and a jack and an axle stand - just to be sure), I have pulled out No.2 and 3 pistons. The shells look quite good (see what you think), I noticed the top ring on 2 had broken in 3 pieces, not sure if that was from the piston being tapped out or whether its from a while ago

http://i47.tinypic.com/2ja80k.jpg


http://i49.tinypic.com/9hnj2w.jpg


http://i48.tinypic.com/2ni1iqf.jpg



1/ There's two shafts running back the length of the block, I am guessing they are balancer shafts, when 1 was on TDC there were 2 x dimples (countersinks) facing downwards - is that the correct setting? How do I ensure when I push the oil pump assy back up that the shafts are timed precisely?


http://i46.tinypic.com/1o64oj.jpg


2/ When I pulled down the sandwich plate between the block and the sump there was an oil pipe running back the length of it. What is this for, is it to exhaust oil?

3/ On the oil pump assembly in the corners near the gear drive (for balancers) there were two metal shims on each side which seem to act as gaskets.......presumably just clean up and stick it back on and will seal OK?


http://i48.tinypic.com/34oejhc.jpg


http://i46.tinypic.com/19wppd.jpg


4/ For those injector holders that hold the glow plugs, how do I remove them?

[Mervyn Pepper]

hi richard.
tube to the rear is a oil suction line for when tractors on hillsides. shims are for gearbacklash, leave as they are.
Balancers weeights down when any 2 pistons are at tdc. yes a 3/8 bolt screws into the dimples when timed right at tdc.
you can time one gear with the bolt. But when lifting pump up other gear has to be a tooth out. But this 'rolls into place' as oil pump helical gears engage and rotate. so you check when everythings bolted up. then rotate to next pistons are at tdc to double check
To remove precombustion chambers from head you need a special cat tool is a bolt with splined shank that engages with chamber spline to unscrew it.
will have to look the part number up 4 you.
hope this helps cheers merv

[tctractors]

Richard, the Lanchester style ballance shafts run at twice crank speed, the Sandwich plate (your Verb) is called the sump in CAT Verbs, the Sump is called the oil pan?? in the plate bit that the oil pan (your sump bit) covers is 2 bolt holes that you screw 2 bolts in to hold the shafts in place No1 piston up, them their shaft bits down, then you knock down the dowls in the oil pump flush to help jiggle the pump back home, the shim plates are gear mesh setting parts Ref' the Crank gear, your rings where donk before you fired the rods free, the pistons are marked with a V that aims for a V on the block face also your rods are marked with a line on top and bottom section of B/end plus an assembly No 1 to 4 so check out the location of the bearing assembly tangs on the rods to the piston V mark, its most common on these motors to find valve guide wear,and roto coils worn out, plus wear on the rocker arm tips?? the B/ends have had some crap go past em' the oil pipe that goes to the back of the engine is the scavenger pipe (so you can work on steep bits of dirt) the pre combustion chambers are removed by a splined service tool that pokes in the hole the injector lives in.

p.s. who stole the front bit off your motor??? plus make sure the block is drained of water and the crank is covered befor you suck out the liners, also measure their hight (DTI will do)

p.p.s. that jacking up lark you have ain't nothing like I do it, I just put 2 small chunks of timber between the top of the saddle and the frame, thats 1 bit of wood each side of the under frame, it makes it more fun to work on and is a good bit safer???

[Mervyn Pepper]

went out me shed had a look in toolbox. tool is 5F8353. no idea of cost today, got mine 33 years ago !!
Be sure to put rags around the main brg caps and tape up the big end journals before you pull the liners. some dirt and about a gallon of water more or less will come out when you pull first one.
cheers M

[Mervyn Pepper]

just to add abit to tonys post. rocker arm faces can be regound to clean them up. rods have numbers on then numbers face the cam, and yes line up the v marks. How you going tony, hope you had a few days off at xmas to eat drink and be merry

[tctractors]

Merv, the "Firm" is flat out, today I sucked out the liners from the D8H motor, then made a pulling plate on a Lathe to suck out some right heavy liners from a Soil-Mec slurry pump on a Drilling Rig, tomorrow (early doors) I am on a Mission to sort some track off thing on a ?????? all I was given was a location plus I need to get the gearbox thrown back into the CAT D5 VHp Chariot, I did tell Richard to cover the crank pins, easy way is the old rod bearings and a Zip Tie, all the water will be at No 4 pot, as I bet Richard never drained the block proper like, the combustion socket I would have at least 4 in my Charabance. sadly Richard lives a good trip from me.

tctractors

[Richard~J~W]

thanks for all that info Tony and Mervyn

[Richard~J~W]

I did tell Richard to cover the crank pins, easy way is the old rod bearings and a Zip Tie,

tctractors

thats what i did.....i drained the coolant/water/H20 out the tap on the left side of the block......sounds like there could be more in there then

[Richard~J~W]

,and roto coils worn out,

pardon my higgerance.....what are these things?

also for valve guides I was going to take it to the boys in Plymouth who skim heads etc. is there a bit of a spec that i need to tell them to check?

[Mervyn Pepper]

dont muck around with the guides put new ones in them. i will look up the stem thickness for the valves. often inlet are ok. ex seem to wear the most.
The rotocoil or valve rotators turn the valves abit everytime the valve is depressed. You tap the valve with a wooden mallet and they should rotate in their seats. I actually thought 330s didnt have them, know 330C does. Memory might be abit soggy; will have a look in my 78A parts book. Is US but basically same as your 88A.
answer soon

[Mervyn Pepper]

ok valve stem min use again diameter .3704 in. min lip thickness .095 in
valve spring compressed to 2. 5/16 in minimum 53lb
According to me/my books doesnt have valve rotators fitted

[tctractors]

Merv, you would be right on the Roto coil thing, I did 1 of these engines up about this time last year in a D4, (same series) but I only keep a limited amount of things in my brain??? the valve springs I check by having them all on a flat surface showing the height of them, any low height springs found I change the lot, as valve springs are only small coins, the valve guides are also a low cost item that change out easy, I do have the installing tooling though so it makes this task a simple job, the splined chamber tool is often seen on E-Bay for sale? the skimming of cylinder heads I avoid unless the head needs this detail, if you have this task done drill the dowl holes a bit deeper or check them out for depth in the head.

[Mervyn Pepper]

Yes your very right about the dowl holes tony. I never had that FU but saw people who did. And yes free valve spring hight is only check you can do if no valve spring tester is available.
dont worry about your memory mate; your probably forgotten more than i know :clock:
Check those valve lips carefully esp exhaust. any doubt replace them. last thing you want is a dropped valve. D4D wasn,t so bad but 83A D6C did this. we had all these versions of D4/ D6 in nz. US, pom, japanese.

[Richard~J~W]

Thanks again Mervyn and Tony for the detailed info.

So today's update:

Measured liner protrusion, they're all between 1.08mm > 1.27mm (upto .50"????) then pulled them out, no more than a egg-cup full of water came out, there was a little bit of dirt and sludge in there.

So when I go to put new liners in what do you lube the o rings with to ensure it slips back in easily, fairy liquid or vaseline or something else?
As a matter of course do you fill the water jacket to see if the seals don't leak prior to rebuild?.....also "should" they measure up to that kind of spec above?

As you noticed Tony, the front end is off going for sand-blasting later. The rad is out, some of the fins look dodgy so intend to send it off someone like Sercks for re-coring, presumably something as old as this will be within their capability.

I turned the valves around in the guides and like you say they are sloppy so for sure will replace, also a couple of the valve springs were on the low side.....so....

Those main shells it seems are oversized +0.25" and will replace them

I got the message about skimming the head, unless it absolutely needs it I'll has them simply to polish the dirt off.

[tctractors]

Richard, that liner height dip is way off, I would have thought about 5 to 8 thou above the block should be near right??? you need to clean out the block and check the area the lower seals sit in, the liner will have a flat seal near the top (filler band seal) this is dipped in engine oil then fitted the lower seals are lubed with rubber grease or silicone grease, but fit all the liners without seals first and check the liner height as per the book swapping sleaves about to give the best target reading, the skimming the head thing is O.K. but some shops think nothing of chopping an1/8th off ??? the radiator might be a very costly thing so do check this out well? the water system sends cool water from the W/Pump into the cylinder block often Via oil coolers, if there is any in the system they will need stripping and cleaning, take off top and bottom caps and poke out the water tubes with a welding rod, any snaps of this Mullered Rad would be a good thing, finaly when fitting the rods home remove the bolts before as they can scratch the bores.

[snowshoveler]

You need to make a tool to push the liners into the block.
I just used a H shaped bit of steel that I could bolt down with the head studs.
I remove the Orings first and then measure things.
The lube I used for assembling with Orings installation was suggested to me by the local Cat guy...he used the handcleaner with lanolin..
Not the stuff with the sand in it.
No oil anywhere near them.
Regards Chris

[tctractors]

Richard, as I said earlier if you have a flat seal at the top of the liner (filler band) this must be soaked in engine oil just pre to fitting the liner, the oil makes this seal expand aiding the sealing action, K.Y. jelley might be an easy option for the lower seals or as I have already said Rubber Grease or Silicone Grease, if you read your service book it will tell you about the liner height and fitting of liners to the block.

[catsilver]

We used to apply Swarfega to those lower seals at Bowmaker (Plant) Ltd and Finning, and nver had a problem.

[catsilver]

Thinking back, the spec for liner height should be between .004" and .008" with no more than .001" variation around a liner or between adjacent liners with no more than .004" variation along the length of the block. I reckon that if the counterbores and liner flanges are good and you can get more than .002" protusion within the above variations, you should be OK. Remember that these specs also applied to the D333C/3306 engine which went to 300+ horsepower, turbocharged and aftercooled with a longer version of the same head gasket. Don't stop at tightening the head bolts three times, go to at least five, if you pull carefully, you will find the first few bolts will go a little bit more at least at the fourth time and possibly the fifth. When Cat brought out the'three stage' torque method in the early seventies, I used to keep going round until the first two studs wouldn't go anymore and I never had a head gasket leak.
Even when using 'angle torqueing' on other engines, I suggest going round at the initial torque several times to make sure the first few (centre) studs are tight before applying the angle torque so they all go down evenly.

[tctractors]

Catsilver, I am not to sure but think Richards banger is fitted with the 4"1/2 bore motor, its a good bit since I clapt eyes on the beast, Richard if it has the crank case inspection plates on the near side the rod numbers always go to the inspection plates this would be on this engine towards the Cam but rod numbers always face towards the plates on the old style engines, they changed the valve guide shape in the early 1970's so they had to be pressed down to a set hight as the step was removed from the guide, I always check the ballancer shaftsto make sure they are in the correct side as I have seen plenty fitted incorrectly.

[Richard~J~W]

Hello Catsilver, good to hear from you, hope all is well up around Exeter and you've not been affected by the rain.....its a bit more 'level' up around that way.



The fan is a bit worse for wear with a few bits missing, its a 4-blade thing, on e-bay I see there's a 6 blade, OK to put one of them on there?



Do these these numbers on the top left side of the block identify the engine, in terms of ordering parts?
If so it makes it a 60A series engine only the service manuals I see on e-bay don't inc. this range normally 56B & 57B upwards

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/snoonblock.jpg



Tony, this is the rad. thing is it really needs careful cleaning and the tanks needs painting before re-installing and I think anyone over zealous with a sand-blaster will ruin it.


http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/rad1.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/rad2.jpg



Maybe I need to go to spec savers but I haven't seen any sign of an oil cooler on the engine

[Inter674]

seems Cat dropped the oil cooler in later models or otherwise, a previous owner has probably done away with it. The core looks OK, but caution, I found my D4 looked fine, but on re-assembly it leaked like a sieve. Cleaning and re-assembly seems to remove the gunk that stops them leaking. And re-soldering, eg., where the tubes mate with the header plates is impossible I found as the metal gets thin and is impossible to clean up to take solder again.

New cores are very expensive in Aus up to 1200 A dollars plus freight. The UK may be different and hopefully they will be a lot cheaper there - as they are in the US.

[tctractors]

Richard I thought your chariot was an 88A series tractor, anyhow Ive been sorting part No's today on that D8 motor (early series) it turns out the only thing pucker is the dip stick (CAT speak oil gauge) its fitted with D8K spacer plate liners, late series 270 hp 68A rods early K pistons and late series B/ends that are chopped .050 U.S. lucky for me the piston pins are the same through em' all, I am "purdy poss" that your back case No should be the same as your engine No?? on the oil cooler thing, well what is the Beast sat in the frame? or in other words what is stamped on the back case.
The little D4 that I had a spanner spinning on last year was an 88A series tractor, this is probably confusing my computer (head), this D4 was swapped about a fair bit within the Link Club Members etc, and took Mr Foster to buckel down to sort it out a bit, John Foster always puts in the effort and the coins to save machinery from the Boat to China, with all credit to the Man he ended up with something so right and original it was a comfort to your eyes to look at the Beast even when the engine was stopped, the noise of a running motor always adds greatly to the visual deal for me, lets hope you manage to get this Charabanc back to a running item Richard, Oh the Swarfega thing is an idea? I never use it myself as I find a Bag of Fish & Chips get my hands clean, the Rad thing might be best kept back for a DIY job as this could be big coins???

[Richard~J~W]

hmmm, I been doing some research, 60A seems to be the ser. no. ref for a 955H.........seems, as you said Tony, the engine and unit plate should be the same on that age of machine

[catsilver]

It seems that at sometime the original block has been replaced with one from a 955H 60A, the base engine is the same but the 60A had piston cooling jets in it. All the talk of filler bands put me off track because the 4.5" bore engine didn't have them unless Cat have introduced them very recently. The same basics apply about liner protusion and torquing the head, the old D333B marine version of this engine went up to about 240hp==40 hp per cylinder, the 88A was around 20hp per cylinder so it wasn't too stressed.
Its not too bad here Richard, I live on top of a hill near Ottery, but there has been plenty of flood damage, I trust you still have plenty of work TC and I wish a very happy New Year to you both.

[Richard~J~W]

It seems that at sometime the original block has been replaced with one from a 955H 60A, the base engine is the same but the 60A had piston cooling jets in it.

yes i noticed these little jets down there

[tctractors]

Catsilver, the liners that I fitted into the 88A had the top band on them, the ones I removed from the block had nothing?? they would not have been pucker CAT parts but things keep on changing, the piston spray jets often mean oil cooler fitted??? anyhow the work thing is still at its usual level for me, today I am off to the D5 VHP tractor to poke the gears back into the case etc, in the comming week I have a D6C to pull a rim off for the owner, then he will get the case to bits, I would do this bit for him in a few moments but this is how he wants things so I do as I am told.
Wishing everyone who reads these bits of script a Healthy New Year Ahead.
tctractors

[catsilver]

Hi Tony and Richard, it just shows how Cat keep developing, those filler bands were not introduced until years after production of the 4.5" bore D330/D333 engines ceased, yet they have introduced an improvement on an obsolete engine. In this game, we just keep learning. thats what makes it so interesting. Other manufacturers think they are good because the total company value may be more but no-one can hold a candle to Cat in R&D and long term support.
The original 955H engine would have also had an engine oil cooler, transmission cooler, different pistons? turbo lube valve and possibly a bigger oil pump but the base block and timing case were the same with different timing gear marks for different applications. I am working from memory so try and avoid writing something I'm not sure of.
Happy New Year to you all, keep up the good work, I'm now into my last year before official retirement but my MD has already offered inducement and three days a week to work after 65 in 2014?

[Richard~J~W]

Catsilver, likewise hope you and your folks have a great New Year.......time certainly flies only seems like 5 minutes ago we started this one (I am starting to sound like father now....)
Whats your plans for after 65, would you be tempted by the 3 days a week?



So this is starting to concern me now.

This afternoon I been doing a bit of a parts list for the machine, the B/E shells that came out are 25thou undersize, with 8N8221 stamped in it, now the parts book shows 10, 20 & 30 shells.
The Main shell is also 25thou under with 8N8225 stamped in it, I am hoping to change them without removing the crank - just sliding them up around. The parts book says its 4 + 1 crank shells, one of them has thrust bearings fitted to it?

OK, fair enough order like for like, now I don't see any signs of Cat numbers on the pistons or liners, moving on to the head is there a place where I can find a part number which would confirm which it is.....so I get the right valve guides, springs and valves?..........Or just speak with the guys and Moores and ask them to work from the 955H 60A engine manual?

[tctractors]

Richard, the 60A was a powershift Shovel running at about the 100HP, it was fitted with a turbo and as already said (catsilver) 2 oil coolers where hooked into the water feed line to the cylinder block, I am sure they shared the same rods and camshaft, but I think the Timing gears were thicker on the shovel motor by only a small amount? as you have a good CAT part No for the B/Ends and Mains things should be no trouble, 8N8220 I think is a standard Brg for a 333C-3306 Crank? anyhow the gaskets are all common and the pistons have the part No on the crown, just polish em up it will be there, rolling the main bearings is simple enough, slacken off the Vee belt and undo all the main bolts 90 deg, then swap out the bearings 1 at a time bolting the cap up but just eased, there might be a shim or 2 on these old bangers, when you go to tighten up the main and B/Ends always tighten the tang side first, plus on the main caps run front to back tang side then back to front non tang side its the way its done, that is nip up first with a small rachet, then a low torque set then the standard torque set, checking that things still turn after every stage.

[catsilver]

Richard, good informaion from TC, I would suggest using your 88A parts book and assume that only the block is changed unless the valve and piston part numbers tell you any different. It seems that TC has stumbled across one part that is the same on 4.5 and 4.75 bore engines, the big end shells. John Moore is a good source of parts and information, I worked for John himself when he was a service manager for Bowmaker back in the 60's, although I have not seen the man himself since the early 80's.

[tctractors]

Richard the inlet valves would be the same in both engine spec's, so would the springs and guides, the last 60A shovel I worked on we changed the Roto Pads, this is a gizmo under the valve spring that turns the lot above, the Exhaust valves in the turbo engine would be a different item (usualy 1 No more or less) but both Exhaust valves would be O.K. in the non Turbo motor.

[Richard~J~W]

Again thanks for the feedback, fellas.

Put a bit more time to it today, basically a cleaning-up session, the head has 9H3800E cast in it......why is it I see 'E' on the end of a lot of part numbers?

The pistons from 2 & 3 seem to have some chipping in the piston crowns and no signs of part numbers, but No.1 is 2M5558 and No.4 is 7M8695.......visually they look the same.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/111_zps4e806c86.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/4-2_zps8a81a1f8.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/RichardJayW1/2and3_zps79bef23d.jpg

So all that remains now is to wish you all a peaceful New Year.....hope 2013 will be a good one

[Inter674]

Pistons 2 and 3 is where the water ends up when it gets in from the exhaust and mixed with carbon forms an acid.

Both my d4 engines have almost identical markings on the heads piston crowns, valves etc, all caused by water being allowed to get in. 1 and 4 assemblies are perfect. Some of this could be condensation as I was told one of my engine exhaust pipe was always capped.

I did not get too phased by the pitting focussing on the bores and piston wear, rings valves and valve seats etc and provided these are OK, re-use them. The piston crowns and very thick and trying to remove/shave the head enough to clean it up free from pitting is a waste of time as it will introduce a heap of other problems.

[Mervyn Pepper]

Should be no oil cooler at all richard. someone has fitted a 2nd hand block from a 955H, hence the 60A number.
Re the piston and valve p/nos cat had lots of updates here and only way to follow it all is with the cat NPR. As numbers update to another
The radiator looks ok on the outside, but is a good idea to remove the top and bottom tanks to clean out the tubes.Some of the bolts may brake, but is easy enough to just heat up the broken bolts in the 'strips' when its all apart to remove them. I just gently use a long engine oil 'dipstick' to poke down tthe tubes. If they dont clean easily dont force it too much, will damage the tubes. Then wash out with a pressure water wash and blow out with air. If the fan side of the radiator is worn from the fan blowing dust. you can fit the core back on the tanks the opposite way. To extend its life. These tractors don,t have heating problems, so long as everythings clean. They are only 65hp.
another thing i would recommend is pull the back cover off the governor and put a new spring in it. for the little cost it certainly made mine more responsive, plus i did give mine some more rack travel, mainly to just compensate for worn plungers and barrells. That plus the lo speed 1 and 2 gears i put in mine, make it perform quite well now. And can push clay alot of the time in 2nd gear.
M :wave:

[Richard~J~W]

another thing i would recommend is pull the back cover off the governor and put a new spring in it. for the little cost it certainly made mine more responsive, plus i did give mine some more rack travel, mainly to just compensate for worn plungers and barrells. That plus the lo speed 1 and 2 gears i put in mine, make it perform quite well now. And can push clay alot of the time in 2nd gear.
M :wave:

Mervyn,

thanks for the tip. so pardon my ignorance, but I am looking in the service manual and the spring is the one that sits on the long bolt resting up against the governer weights, is this the one you mean?


there's a temp sender that screws up in the head on the left side, looks like a capillary tube type of thing, well it needs replacing, in the parts book this is the "water pressure gauge group"?

Inter674,

Got you now on the pistons, thanks for that.

[Mervyn Pepper]

Hi richard; yes thats the spring. That tube is the water temperature gauge. Funny that its listed as water pressure; which its not. My part nos 9m2745. heat indicator. Gov spring is 8h9219

[Richard~J~W]

Hmm, in the book here its 9S2326 group, now is (3) sleeve with the tube or I need to order the gauge (1) which is 3S4131 and the tube is permanently attached to it?



feels like Sunday here :lol:

[catsilver]

Hi Richard,The 'E' on the end of a part number means it's a UK manufactured part so I guess the head is an original D4 part as the 60A is an American built machine. I can't see how changing the governor spring will make the rack go further as travel is limited by the torque spring and stop bar, although it may help throttle response.
I will be working part time after 65 and its back to work at Newton Abbot in the morning, I will keep an eye on your posts while I'm at work.

[catsilver]

I missed something here Richard, the 'temperature indicator' is the gauge complete with the tube and sensor bulb.

[tctractors]

The temp gauge used/is to be a very costly item from CAT, from Moore's it just a few knicker, the piston part No changes with the slightest detail, the Turbo pistons would often be fitted across the engine range, the 3304/6 engine had at least 5 inlet valves and 5 exhaust valves listed with P.C and D.I. plus Gas style engines, the top spec item would do the lot, Oh on the piston thing its not the top bit that changes its the piston ring area that is usualy the place to study.

[d4c24a]

mine broke when i removed the head on mine ,found a suitable replacement via ebay
not quite as much as this one ,but a similar gauge

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Amazing-Retro-Temperature-Gauge-capilliary-NOS-/260878037734?pt=UK_Cars_Parts_Vehicles_Other_Comme rcial_Vehicles_ET&hash=item3cbd8af2e6

[bigkit]

What a project, good on you lot. What a pit crew you'd make! :thumb::lol:

[Mervyn Pepper]

Spring just makes it more responsive richard. Will be weak after 45 plus years toil. I pulled a shim out of mine to give it abit more rack travel. not really recommended unless its gutless. Had worked on enough of these pumps to know what i was doing. Proper fix is pump delivery cc, s on a test bench and maybe fit new plungers and barrels. I did the poor mans option. Just has a slight dark haze now lugging. And never gets over 1/3 way up temp gauge.
Was a video i rember seeing over your way about a toiler of a guy called Dave Merrin, he had a 88A like yours on a Onions scoop. Had alot of trouble with it; but sorted it out eventually, and his went quite well after that. Certainly worked it in the scoop video. Graham knows the guy im talking about i think. His user name was yellow iron. Very likable guy.
Hope yours goes as well. Those little onions scoops are great earthmoving tools. Onions No12 cable control was too light no14 is better. But converted to hyd is even better. Seen a few onions 06-8s this has been done too. Got a 6yd sterling for my D4E. Eventually might sort out D4D to tow it Retirement job ? :clock: Cat 40s are perfect but very jelously gaurded by there owners. Worth 5k of your pounds here :jaw:34249

[d4c24a]

yes Merv thats Dave Merrin , i brought his NO12 when he converted to hyds on his D4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZOY-SHkAWE

[Mervyn Pepper]

Cheers Graham thats the video. Little girl certainly earns her keep . hope Daves still keeping well.
Thanks mate