PDA

View Full Version : Advice on d2 for restoration



tomwalter
06-17-2012, 11:59 PM
i am looking at buying my first crawler as a restoration project. i don't have land to work it on im just interested in restoring one out of interest. I put a wanted ad on a local website and got a response from a guy locally who had a d2 for sale. Went and had a look its serial no is 4u5820 on the left side of block but the serial no from under the seat was missing. The hour meter is only showing about 530 hrs which seems low to me? the tractor has spend most of its life in an orchard pulling apple bins but also has a blade that doesnt look like an original cat one to me? the track gear looked pretty good too. We could not get the pony motor to run although it did fire but stopped again but the owner told me that the diesel runs well and he would try this week to get the pony started. It has been sitting in a wet shady spot for the last 2 years and the left steering clutch was seized then but the inspection cover has been left off and i suspect that the right could also be seized now? ive taken some photos of the tractor including one brake pedal which some people on this site have said is a good indicator of actual hours worked as hourmeters wern't accurate. The owner wants $4000 AU for it as it is with the one stuck clutch but i think the price would be less if both clutches are stuck? would anyone be able to tell me more details about this tractor and what the blade and hydraulics could be off? Also is this a good price? any advice would be great including replacing clutches which looks hard considering i dont have a proper workshop with crane etc.

30281302833028430285302863028730288302893028030282

STEPHEN
06-18-2012, 06:02 AM
$4,000 AU sounds like a lot for that machine, but then I have no idea about your local market. You will thank yourself for for checking out the unit thoroughly, and any other available as well before jumping in upside-down.

dpendzic
06-18-2012, 08:33 AM
That serial # makes it a late 1952 or early 1953. Where the serial # plate is missing the # should be stamped into the housing .Don't know what type of blade is on it but it appears the blade is way out further past the radiator than a Cat or Balderson blade and with those smaller type front idlers i would suspect that the machine
rock a lot. The later D2 had a longer track frame and a larger dia. solid front idler.
The steering clutches are a job to take out as you have to split the track and remove the final drive assembly. Not uncommon for the brake drum to be rusted fast to the steering clutches and has to be cracked to get apart.
the price seems quite high to me for a machine in that condition with that blade configuration.

ol Grump
06-18-2012, 08:38 AM
I'd agree, the price seems a bit high to me too. On the plus side, it looks to have a good undercarriage with quite a bit of adjustment left for the tracks. Also, all the sheet metal looks to be in good shape with no bad dings that I could see. According to what I could find, it seems to be a '52 or '53 model narrow gauge.

No s/n on the tranny? Look carefully at the left rear of the tranny case. .if the tag is missing, look for either what's left of 4 small rivets or 4 small holes. Cat usually stamped the s/n there before they put the tag on.

Brake pedal wear is a fair indication of hours. . from the looks of the one shown, I'd say it's got more than 530 hours.

Stuck steering clutches on the D2's seems to be quite common. .and the fix can be a real pain. Sometimes they can be broken loose but I wouldn't try to make book on it:lol:

The blade, I have no idea. Looks to be a fairly well shop built one. Same with the hydraulic tank but it does have a front mounted pump. .all to the good there.

I'm not so sure I wouldn't keep looking, mainly 'cuz of the price and steering clutches (not to mention it didn't run). If the seller would/could get it running and cut the price in half. . .I think I'd consider it.

zootownjeepguy
06-18-2012, 03:39 PM
I'm following the crowd here. Seems a bit much to pay for a D2 in that condition here in the USA but maybe not for down under. I would definitely keep looking. If the steering clutches have been open to the weather for any length of time I'd run away.

Mike Meyer
06-18-2012, 04:34 PM
I just put new steering clutches, brakes, bearings and seals in two identical D2's here in Australia that had stuck steering clutches, and it took 2 of us about 7 days straight working 11 hour days, and my offsider was one of Australia's best Cat. Mechanics, I used secondhand brake drums, but all new genuine Cat. or General Gear parts elsewhere like bearings, seals and gaskets, so figure around $3,000 just for your parts, then add your labor bill if you are paying a Cat. Dealer $120 a hour, or even a local Bush Mechanic $60 a hour it soon adds up and that's without touching the gearbox, motors, cooling system or undercarriage.

My advice is ask him to get both the pilot motor and main motor running, and get him to then drive the tractor for a hour or more pushing dirt with that blade, to see if the steering clutches pop loose, which they have been known to do on the odd occasion, if they do then $4,000 is a fair price in Tasmania, however, if he can't get the pilot motor running well in front of you, meaning it starts second or third pull and runs well without blowing smoke everywhere, and he is unable to get the steering clutches free, then I'd value that tractor at no more than $1,500 in Tasmania or the mainland, because if you wait a little longer a good one will come along for $4,000, that does everything it should. Once you split a old D2 Cat to repair something major like steering clutches, both time and money fly out the window, trust me, I know.
regards
Mike

jdkoller
06-19-2012, 05:29 PM
#1 Running engines
#2 Good clutches
#3 Good Undercarriage (5U)
#4 Original Cat Pump and blade (44 pump, toolbar, straight or angel) - not Holt or aftermarket.
#5 Reasonable price

These are "nice to have" options.
- Late model (post 13236) - greasable clutch bearings, above fender fuel tank, bent sticks, better dash.
- Over sized solid idlers - The spoke idlers tend to break and are becoming hard to find.
- PTO
- Lights
- Rear hydraulics
- Street shoes or rubber pads

Any time you tear them down, there are a million little things like gaskets, bearings, brake pads etc, that eat up time and money. Not to mention the big things like clutches, and engine parts.

I guess this is my way of letting you know what is out there, and also telling you that you should get a machine that you really love and want to finish. That is what keeps you moving forward when you have them in a million pieces with no end in sight.

FWIW :-)

Jamie

catsteve
06-19-2012, 06:42 PM
on the plus side

That D2 4U appears to be mostly complete. It still has Items that disappear early like the tool box and brass plates. These can cost $ if you want them later on.

They are relatively easy to work on. The CAT manuals are written for regular folks and there is a wealth of info on this board if you get stuck.

A 4U doesnt take up much room ( you can restore one in a backyard shed as you mentioned you don't have land to work it on).

You won't require industrial heavy lifting equipment or a tractor for lifts. a small (1 ton) gantry is useful though.

Being a small tractor they are easier to move around.

Almost all parts for the D2 are still available from either CAT, feabay or suppliers in USA.. the high Aussie $ helps.
If you have the time and money that D2 may be a good restoration candidate.
having said that. i would want to see the pony and diesel running and steering before i parted with $. good luck.

tomwalter
06-25-2012, 11:55 PM
I just put new steering clutches, brakes, bearings and seals in two identical D2's here in Australia that had stuck steering clutches, and it took 2 of us about 7 days straight working 11 hour days, and my offsider was one of Australia's best Cat. Mechanics, I used secondhand brake drums, but all new genuine Cat. or General Gear parts elsewhere like bearings, seals and gaskets, so figure around $3,000 just for your parts, then add your labor bill if you are paying a Cat. Dealer $120 a hour, or even a local Bush Mechanic $60 a hour it soon adds up and that's without touching the gearbox, motors, cooling system or undercarriage.

My advice is ask him to get both the pilot motor and main motor running, and get him to then drive the tractor for a hour or more pushing dirt with that blade, to see if the steering clutches pop loose, which they have been known to do on the odd occasion, if they do then $4,000 is a fair price in Tasmania, however, if he can't get the pilot motor running well in front of you, meaning it starts second or third pull and runs well without blowing smoke everywhere, and he is unable to get the steering clutches free, then I'd value that tractor at no more than $1,500 in Tasmania or the mainland, because if you wait a little longer a good one will come along for $4,000, that does everything it should. Once you split a old D2 Cat to repair something major like steering clutches, both time and money fly out the window, trust me, I know.
regards
Mike

would you say $3000 for parts for both clutches or would that be each? spoke to the guy last week and he hadn't had a chance to try to start it again but ill keep onto him! spoke to a local mechanic last week too and the blade is off a international td6. Would this lessen the value of the machine in a restored state since it is not genuine?

Mike Meyer
06-26-2012, 03:14 AM
would you say $3000 for parts for both clutches or would that be each? spoke to the guy last week and he hadn't had a chance to try to start it again but ill keep onto him! spoke to a local mechanic last week too and the blade is off a international td6. Would this lessen the value of the machine in a restored state since it is not genuine?

$2,000-$2,500 for parts for both steering clutches should cover it assuming your pinion, bull gears, cross shaft and crown wheel is OK, that's using genuine Cat bearings, seals and gaskets, plus new clutch plates and springs from General Gear, if you need new brake drums and clutch hubs add $1,500 roughly. It will take a week just to do the steering clutches and brakes if the blade is off, so add $1,600 to $4,000 for labor, depending on if you have a good Bush Mechanic handy at $30 - $40 a hour, or you have to pay your Cat. Dealer $120 a hour. You will need special pullers for this job, and it can take longer than mine did if you find more problems like shot bearings in the gearbox. Don't be fooled, the D2 might only be a little crawler, but repairing steering clutches is one of the more challenging jobs on a Cat because the tractor has to be split.

The wrong blade definitely detracts the value, just remember those D2's are everywhere, they are not rare, so if I lived in the USA I'd just wait a month because 2 or 3 good ones will show up in your price range.
regards
Mike

wimmera farmer
06-26-2012, 07:54 AM
It is a lot of dollars if motors won't run and clutches are stuck.
A lot of folks miss the last digit on cat clocks could be more like 5300 hours, it has had a rough life if it is only 5 hundred hours.
On an older machine maintenence and proper storage are far more important than hours worked.Rust chews away very quietly.
Parts are getting harder every year for the older models so be prepared to put in some hard yards and dollars.
The D2 was not desighned to have a blade fitted but is capable of a lot of work with a patient operator. Rode miles sitting on a bag on the toolbox when I was a kid (quite a while ago now) still have the tractor and take it to a rally or two.
cheers wimmera farmer victoria

tomwalter
09-17-2012, 04:41 AM
Well its been a few months but finally done the deal on the machine. The owner didn't have the time to get the pony running so i picked it up for $2500 AU not going. Hired a tilt tray to come and get it for me but the day started out on shaky ground when we hooked the winch to the blade and the tracks just slid along the ground. After towing for about the length of the machine the tracks came loose and it free rolled onto the truck. Took it up to my uncles construction yard where we hooked it to the crane in an attempt to tow start it after many failed attempts to get the pony to fire. Towed the tractor about the length of the track frame when she went pop pop pop and fired right up! Then we drove it backward and fowards to try to free up the clutches and after about ten minutes the right side came free. Left side still stuck. The steering levers feel really slack as in they do nothing for most of the travel only in the last 50mm or so that they have resistance? I gather thats an adjustment issue? Took it to the wash bay and blasted 60 years of grease off it and now its parked up ready to start work on it. It was one of those days where so much couldn't have happened but thankfully everything went smoothly for a change. Thanks for all the advice it has been much appreciated now the road to restoration begins. I have manuals ordered from finney corp and i think the pages will be worn out when im finished!

Tom 321693217032171321723217332174

drujinin
09-17-2012, 06:09 AM
Sit in the seat, look between your legs, there is a cover with 6 bolts, take it off to adjust steering lever travel/clutches. Take a flashlight/torch, peer down inside at each brake drum. Chances are you will see swelled clutch plates coming out of the brake drums, which is why the steering levers are slack. Make sure the 4 steering clutch compartment drain plugs are installed underneath, the pour some water displacing loose juice in till its full. Then drive it around the construction yard holding the levers back to wash the loose juice all around in there while riding the brakes as much as possible. When done doing that for a while, park it, then crawl under and remove the 4 drain plugs for the steering compartments. Drain them, leave plugs out and work on the other bits and pieces before tackling any more steering issues.
Favorite loose juice is almost any commercial product, though some guys use Acetone mixed with ATF, I use plain old diesel fuel.
Jeff

tomwalter
09-19-2012, 03:59 AM
I have read a lot of posts here about pouring loose juice into the clutch compartments to free up the clutches but what i can understand is if the clutches do come loose how would you stop them from slipping all the time since there will be fluid left all over the clutch plates? I assumue they would just slip all the time like a car one would if you got oil on it? Is there any chance of the loose juice finding its way into the final drive and doing damage in there? i have read that the clutches should be less than half filled to prevent this.

drujinin
09-19-2012, 06:00 AM
If the seals are all good, the juice will stay where it belongs. If it don't then you need to decide how much you want to invest in tearing it down to replace leaking seals. You should drain and refill the transmission as part of your getting it running program anyways.
The CAT manuals say to use Kerosene or Gasoline (if kero isn't readily available) to wash slipping clutches. If you do break it free using juice, then awesome!
One less headache!
Leave the drain plugs out of the bottom and they will drain and dry out after your final flush.
Its got a blade on it, then after you get it free, take it out and work long and hard to get the rust out of it as a final precaution to prevent them from sticking again in a years time.

Mike Meyer
09-19-2012, 03:17 PM
I'm glad to hear you bought the D2, well done. I like the idea of half filling the stuck steering clutch compartment with diesel and working the crawler getting it nice and hot in there with the brake on, but that's only after you have serviced that old girl and adjusted the clutches to correct spec, they definitely shouldn't be slopping around except for the first few inches of travel. I like to change the oil on my old Cats when I drag them home, and the books suggests you flush the gearbox, transmission and final drives with something like kerosene, but at $4 a litre I find that a bit expensive, safest way would be to use diesel.

Ask any questions you like while you are waiting for your books.
regards
Mike

Inter674
09-19-2012, 06:26 PM
Well done - that price is not too bad at all, and it looks like it will restore without too much trouble - but then again, even if it does take a bit of time and money, it will be worth it in the end. At least the engine goes easily, that's a very good start and hopefully the clutches will free up with some use.

What with Ashcat and Co, I think we'll have to start a Tassie Old Cat Chapter or something similar one day. Or perhaps holding a group councilling session from time to time would be better!

tomwalter
09-20-2012, 03:09 AM
Well done - that price is not too bad at all, and it looks like it will restore without too much trouble - but then again, even if it does take a bit of time and money, it will be worth it in the end. At least the engine goes easily, that's a very good start and hopefully the clutches will free up with some use.

What with Ashcat and Co, I think we'll have to start a Tassie Old Cat Chapter or something similar one day. Or perhaps holding a group councilling session from time to time would be better!

Yes i like the idea of a tassie chapter. We might have to organise to take the old cats to agfest one year once we've got them done! thanks for all advice on the clutches i will try this as soon as i can get back to it!

Palmer
09-21-2012, 10:58 PM
Hi Tom, Welcome to the club.

I'm just chipping in with a bit of info I discovered when I was searching for parts and service books for my
D2.
Try the Morawa district historical society in Western australia web site and have a look at the manuals section for tractors. They provide a wounderful service of copying old manuals to disk in J-peg format and the quality is as good as it gets as well as incredibley cheap.
The beauty of having it on disk is that you can enlarge parts, and still have good clarity not to mention grease stains don't smear the pages.

Best of luck and look forward to hearing more about the mission.