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View Full Version : 1954 D4 7U - Restarting after 20+ year nap



kdreed88
02-22-2015, 01:36 PM
Hello all,

First of all, I would like to apologize if some of the terminology I use is not correct as I am new when it comes to this, and I am wanting to learn as much as I can to bring the D4 back to life. I will try and provide as much information as I can based on what I know and have found out from various family members. At the moment I am really in a fact finding mission to determine what work can and/or will need to be done to return it to working order. Hopefully my grandma will give us permission to actually take steps to start it back up. I do have the original books for the D4, including parts manuals as well as the operation & maintenance manual that I can reference.

- Configuration -
Hydraulic Blade (possibly even rear hydraulic controls, but not of interest at the moment)
Electric Pony Motor Start

- Short History -
It has been in my family since it was bought and was last used regularly by my grandfather in the early 90's before he passed away. From what I was told, it was very well maintained as he worked with heavy equipment for a career. It has been located in Northern California, through both freezing winters and hot summers. It was primarily used for moving dirt, creating fire breaks around the property, and creating access roads on the property.

- The Last Run -
The last time it ran was in the mid 90's, and we had some difficulty in getting it started. I was only 8 or so at the time and don't know everything they did to make it work aside from the obvious, which was to pull the D4 with a few trucks to get the diesel engine started.

- The Last Attempt -
The last time we attempted to start the D4 didn't go as well. My dad was involved in that process an in talking to him he said that the problem dealt with the pony motor. With the pony motor running, it was able to turn the main engine over with no problems, but as soon as compression was applied, the pony motor would stall out.

- Current Status -
The D4 has been sitting in a covered 3-sided shelter ever since it last ran and (aside from the cobwebs and dust) looks like the day it was parked. The exhaust stack for the main engine doesn't have a rain-catcher on it, but has been covered with a tin can to prevent rain from getting in there. The battery has been removed, so there shouldn't be any corrosion anywhere due to that. It appears that any gas for the pony motor has evaporated, and from what I was told there is old diesel fuel in the tank. I was also told that the carb for the pony was rebuilt in the last 10 years, but was never actually put to use (it too has been covered from the elements). The fuel pressure gauge is discolored (and stuck all the way to the right) so it probably needs to be replaced.

- The Plan -
Drain & Replace any existing fluids - crankcase(s), diesel fuel
Replace the Fuel Pressure gauge
Refill radiator with water (drained to prevent freezing)
Attempt to start pony motor
Attempt to start Main engine.

- The questions -
Any information that might be missing
What should we be looking for as we attempt to bring it back to life.
In response to the issue

- Additional notes -
I have been watching videos on Youtube (and elsewhere as I can find them) on how to start the D4 tractors and have a basic understanding of the process.

I have included a few pictures that I took with my iPhone of some of the key areas for reference.

Thanks in advance for any information!

Dale


499144991549916

old-iron-habit
02-22-2015, 01:52 PM
Hello kdreed88, If you go into your profile and fill out your address there is a good chance that there may be a BB member in your area that would be willing to stop by and point things out for you. Many on here can give you step by step directions but unless you have a general understanding of the machine its hard to understand. No one wants damage done by not checking things out throughly before going going at things.

7upuller
02-22-2015, 02:07 PM
Hey Dale,

What location in Northern California? glen

Deas Plant.
02-22-2015, 02:21 PM
Hi, Dale.
Welkum too ther 4um. Sorry to hear that you have 'caught yellow fever'. Death seems to be the only relief from it or cure for it. LOL.

You appear to have the basic requirements pretty well figured out for getting this jigger running again. In Northern CA., remember to add a GOOD quality anti-freeze to the cooling system when re-filling.

As long as this machine has been standing, I think I would be looking to flush the fuel lines right through to the injector pump with fresh fuel. This can be done disconnecting the pipe from the filters, putting a little fresh fuel in the tank and then pressurizing the tank with a few PSI of air to blow it through. Even a piece of rubber sheet with a SMALL hole in it for an air hose will do for a seal over the filler spout and cigarette lighter socket powered car air compressor will give you way more than enough air pressure.

I would also suggest replacing the fuel filters - as well as all the others. It is a good idea to replace the fuel pressure gauge but it is not necessary immediately to get the tractor running again. If it is gonna start, it will start regardless of what the pressure gauge shows.

Pony motors can be a bit temperamental (10% temper and 90% mental for the user.) Good compression and spark are essential, along with fresh fuel. It is possibly worth pulling the spark plugs, putting a squirt of some sort of 'loose juice' in there and pulling it over a few times, firstly to check that it is free and secondly to help ensure that the piston rings are free in their grooves.

Make friends with your local Cat dealer. Don't be bashful about asking questions here. the only 'stupid' question is the one you don't ask and there is a LOT of knowledge and expertise here.

Happy re-starting.

Just my 0.02.

kdreed88
02-22-2015, 03:10 PM
Thanks for the input! The D4 is located in Red Bluff, CA.

old-iron-habit: Thanks for your input. I have a fairly decent understanding of the process for everything, but being new I want to make sure that I know as much as I can before trying to start it.

Deas Plant: Thanks for your input as well! We'll definitely flush out the fuel system all the way to the pumps and start it fresh, including changing out the fuel filters. In terms of the pony stalling out with compression added to the diesel, any ideas how we could over come that? I've seen a few mentions online to easing in the compression, and not adding it all at once. Is this something thats even possible, or is better to do all or nothing? If its better to add the compression all at once, how can we keep the pony from stalling?

Thanks again!

dpendzic
02-22-2015, 03:17 PM
the compression is either on or off---no easing in---sounds like the pony is starving for gas under load---have you tried choking it a little when under load? lots of ponys have to run with a little choke.

8C 361
02-22-2015, 03:17 PM
I dont want to be disrespectful to Dees, but I have a little different point of view on your situation. Those guys down under have a different way of looking at things and I think he is being drasically complex.

If you could reel in one of the Cat guys on this forum (you already have one circling). Someone with a little experience could probably have that Cat running in a very few hours. It sounds like it has been well cared for.

Most of us would check the oil for water, maybe drain the pony, it only takes a quart. Leave the diesel alone for now, maybe check the sumps for water but don't open it up, it would be hell to prime again. That old diesel that is in it is way better than the stuff today. I am a little suspect of that pretty original fuel line for the pony. I would make sure it is clear and gas runs through it. Dont waste your money on antifreeze just yet. Just use good quality water until you get it running, you will want to flush it anyway.

Just slap some jumpers on it and fire it up.

Don't expect any help from the local Cat dealer. No one there has ever heard of your model Cat, There is no one that knows anything about it. The parts man might be able to order some parts if you bring him the part number out of your parts book. I believe you might have to put a zero in front of the number. You can get most parts a lot cheaper aftermarket.

Dozerman51
02-22-2015, 03:32 PM
Hello Kdreed88,
Too bad you didn't post this last weekend. I was up your way in Cottonwood. A relative has a 51' 7U#15195 dozer. Set up very much like yours- model 44 hydraulics, surge tank, electric start pony, rear piping for a scarper etc. They are probably one of the best engineered D4's Cat ever made in IMHO. Follow the starting procedure as listed in the Operators manual. If you go on You Tube, you will see countless number of people starting up these old Cats in the wrong fashion. Makes me cringe every time. Follow Deas Plants suggestions and you won't go wrong. He knows his stuff. What do you mean by stalling out? Does the pony lose power and die due to the main not turning or does it turn the main over then die out? Pony motors are very finicky and no two run exactly the same. Check mag, carb and timing. Good luck getting it running and sure would be great to post pic's of it. Even better would be a You Tube video of it firing up for the 1st time about 20 years.:smile:
Joe G.
40' Cat D2/3J#4103
41' Dodge Military WC-12 1/2 ton 4x4 Pick-up

kdreed88
02-22-2015, 03:43 PM
Thanks guys!

I personally haven't tried firing it up, but many of my family members have back in the early 90's.

Everyone has their own way of doing things, which may not be wrong, just different so I'm taking things in with an open mind.

In terms of the pony stalling out, it occurred right after the compression was engaged for the diesel. With it being so long ago, i doubt anyone remembers the choke/throttle settings on the pony. When we try it again thought we'll be sure to keep that in mind!

Hopefully I'll have gathered enough information and be able to try it out in the near future!

8C 361
02-22-2015, 03:56 PM
Might have to blow in the (pony) tank.

ccjersey
02-22-2015, 04:02 PM
In addition to possible fuel starvation or carb adjustment problems, a frozen up governor can cause the pony to die when load is applied. To check, push throttle control knob in all the way and manually move governor arm and throttle linkage back and forth. It should readily spring to wide open (away from you as you work pony controls from left side of machine) when you pull governor arm toward left side of machine and then release it. Notice that the throttle control rod has a bracket on it that engages the throttle butterfly crank to governor arm link and pulls the throttle closed when you pull out on the knob. This is usually the best position to start the pony and let it warm up a little before attempting to latch the pinion in.

Usually easier to get it engaged without grinding when pony is turning slowly. To brake pinion before engaging with the rearmost lever, press the front lever hard to the rear before pulling up on the rear lever to shift pinion gear and latch it in. If lever can be raised with little resistance and flops back down, the pinion is probably already latched . Once pinion is latched into flywheel, then push throttle control in to allow the governor to speed pony up some before you engage pinion clutch by moving the lever forward. Governor should respond to the increased load by opening throttle as far as throttle rod is pushed in to allow. With throttle rod pushed all the way in, governor should limit high idle rpm and respond to load changes.

The governor is a simple machine and if it doesn't work freely, the back section is easily removed to allow cleaning and lubrication of the lever pivot and pushrod which runs through the shaft from the pulley end where there are flyweights. The front end is lubricated by removing a cover screw and adding a small amount of oil (maybe 5 ml or 1tsp). Or the tin cover on the pulley can be removed completely and the weights inspected and freed up if necessary.

Deas Plant.
02-22-2015, 04:10 PM
Hi, Kdreed88.
8C 361 is entitled to his views but HE is the one looking at this all upside down - See MacArthur's Corrective Map Of The Wolrd -

http://www.odt.org/pictureembed.htm

One thing that 8C 361 hasn't mentioned, maybe not even thought of, is that diesel fuel can and does grow algae if left standing for long periods. Personally, I would want to get that out of the system rather than spreading it THROUGH the system, including the injectors. Your choice.

Yes, you may want to flush the cooling system at some early point. IF that is part of your planning, just use plain old-fashioned water to get it running and circulating through the cooling system, prior to flushing.

You can also use ordinary gasoline engine oil in the diesel for your first start(s) and then drop it and do a complete change, filters and all.

My chosen method for starting these jiggers is to get them turning over and warming up for a while BEFORE closing the decompressor and opening the throttle. That is not to say that you can't get them warmed up and oil circulating with the decompressor open, then open the throttle first before closing the decompressor to start. If the diesel fires pretty much straight away, it may give enough assistance for the pony motor to keep it turning until it really gets running.

Pony motors can be finicky but are basically pretty simple - fuel, air, spark, compression and timing. If your pony motor has drain cocks at the bottoms of the heads, you could even fill the cylinders with a mixture of diesel and gasoline - about 50-50 - and let it soak for a day or so before dropping the pony motor oil to help make sure that the rings are free. you can then drain the mix out of the cylinders via the drain cocks - or plugs if fitted.

Good luck.

Just my 0.02.

You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

Ray54
02-22-2015, 07:14 PM
I am willing to back 8C 361 about the fuel here in the "Land of Fruits and Nuts" the quality and stability was better before all the "New" clean air "STUFF" happened.I resurrected a D6 that had sat about the same time frame as this D4.Even though the tractor was in side a barn in a place with average rainfall of less than 10 inches both steering clutches had to be rebuilt because of stuck discs and the fuel tank is worthless because of the rust the fuel itself was very good.Just wished the tank had been topped off at last use.


Hay Deas you and Old Iron can come help him when your on Glenn's payroll out Old Cat hunting. Because you have get to a ranches back fence to get a better look at the next ranches bone yard as most are not as assessable as say Oil Slicks place is.

Kdreed88 at first just drain the condensation out of the tank and sumps and see what is and is not working .After you know it will start , move ,and turn( 5 to 10 minutes of run time ) then is the time to start buying things to do a service of the whole machine.Because you hinted there are other family members that mite veto you playing with it as well be careful of how much money you put up. Take time to do a little pricing.I payed $25 a each for the fuel filters at a Napa auto parts store that generally treats me well.Your D4 will need 4 of those.A on line place listed them for about half,but I have never dealt with this outfit so who knows if they get you on shipping or some other way. Cat,Wix,and Baldwin used to sell 4 in a box with a gasket and ,but have not got any that way in years,so check that out at Cat if you have store handy.And before you change the engine oil if you have not checked out the many past treads here ask about the right oil filters as most Cats have been update ,but your machine is in the time it may have slipped by and not been. Hope all goes well for you,but please report back even if its just other family member want to hog all the fun and not let you play.Because there is as much knowledge of old Cats here as you will find anywhere else,ask anything if you do get to play.Even though most if us are not kids any more and getting testy at times just because,we still share what has worked for us freely.

Neil
02-23-2015, 07:07 AM
Hi Dale,
one thing worth mentioning (but you may already know this) is that once you get the main engine spinning, push the pony throttle all the way in, so that it runs at rated speed. Then, as ccjersey mentioned, when you flip the decompression lever you "should" notice the pony work harder to turn it. If the pony just kind of gives up, that's likely either the governor not doing its job or perhaps gasoline starvation. If you have the option, have your buddy video the carb and governor linkage while you throw the decompression lever with the pony running at full speed. We'll be able to tell what's going on with that information.

cojhl2
02-23-2015, 10:12 AM
""Everyone has their own way of doing things, which may not be wrong, just different so I'm taking things in with an open mind. ""

That may be true,, but most of the starting sequences I've seen on youtube with Caterpillar and IH are pretty poor and display complete lack of understanding how these things work. I agree with Dozerman51 my stomach aches when I see these jerks post pics I guess to brag and it is obvious they have no clue.

Back in the day, (late 40's, 50's, and early 60's the rule we used(with humor of course) 1)start the starting engine, let it run at a slow speed while you smoke a Lucky, 2) Put the big engine in gear compression open, run the starting engine at rated speed, smoke another Lucky while watching oil pressure and engage main clutch. 3) Close valves, poor and drink a cup of coffee talk with your buddy about how tough we have it. 4) Open main throttle 1/4, (don't let it chug especially if a 3 cyl) when engine starts, turn off fuel to starting engine, disengage starting engine clutch(I don't why we do this but all the old timers did so I followed suit) let big engine run for a spell to normalize, get in seat, light another Lucky engage a gear and git to work!..

old-iron-habit
02-23-2015, 11:02 AM
The best correct starting engine video I have seen on U-Tube is the one posted by Sasquatch. He explains everything as he goes. The ACMOC should work out a deal and sell copies of that one thru the BB store.

acat65
02-23-2015, 12:15 PM
one more when you get the diesel started turn gas off the starting engine with the valve.that switch is just an ornament,been more starting engines ruined leaving gas on and getting gas in stm crankcase,they don't hold much Gene

old-iron-habit
02-23-2015, 05:06 PM
It probably has been already mentioned in this thread but changing that one quart of oil in the pony before starting is cheap insurance. It doesn't take much gas or water to contaminate a quart of oil.

7upuller
02-24-2015, 11:07 PM
Hey Dale,

The Cat Night Gang will be doing a drive by on Sunday. I sent you a private message. If you want us to stop by on Sunday Afternoon, contact me. glen

7upuller
02-27-2015, 05:54 PM
Hey Dale,

Sunday the Cat Night Gang will in Corning, Ca. I think it's only 15 minutes or so from your Cat. If you want is to stop by, let me know. glen

rogerjmartin
02-28-2015, 10:21 AM
Hi Dale Be for you start the diesel engine check the injection pump crank case to make sure it as good clean oil and check to see if the rack moves when you pull the throttle lever. I have had diesel that would not start and found the rack stuck in the shut off position. I have found pump plungers stuck in the injection pump. I was up in Wisconsin about twenty years ago in the winter to help Bob pick up a RD7 snow cat with a V plow and wings and his diesel 75 when I got there the farmer had two JD tractors hooked up to the diesel 75 and had ben pulling Bob around in the deep snow for an hour he had feed two cans of ether through it and there was diesel fuel and ether slobbering out the exhaust pipe all over the hood. Soon as I look it I told Bob it is not getting any air. The air cleaner oil cup was full of water and frozen .I unbolted the air cleaner and they pulled it two feet and it started right up. So good luck getting it started.
Roger Martin South West Ohio

kdreed88
03-02-2015, 08:27 PM
Thanks guys! I had a change to talk with another family member who has attempted to do some work on it and got some more information. One of the other apparent problems revolves around the pony motor's clutch. My Uncle said that the clutch doesn't want to stay engaged with the flywheel, and if you try to hold it in position, it'll kick it out really hard and hurt your arm. We do have a Peterson Cat service center up in Redding where we can get some parts ordered if need by. I am also in possession of the service/parts manuals for the D4 so I can look up components.

So with that, has anyone had experience with that and any suggestions on how to go about fixing it? Were not opposed to pulling out the pony motor to gain access to the clutch assembly.

Thanks again!!

dpendzic
03-02-2015, 08:48 PM
I think you mean the pinion engagement lever that wants to jump out after you engage the clutch---there are pinion gear latches that can be adjusted or the pinion itself may be loose on the pinion shaft. there is a small plate on the bell housing to the upper left of the main clutch--remove it and you can see the end of the pinion and check it out for looseness.

kdreed88
03-03-2015, 08:26 AM
Thanks depenzic,

I saw these youtube videos last night (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xb9WzUxo5s and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo0m1XBqdBY) on the starting pinion assembly. You mentioned that the pinion gear itself might be loose. If it is loose, what needs to be done to tighten it back up again?

Thanks!

dpendzic
03-03-2015, 12:34 PM
In Toby's second video he shows the latches and the 4 bolts with keeper plate that holds the assembly on the pinion shaft--it's not actually the gear that becomes loose but the assembly. the latches can be adjusted thru the access hole but I doubt the assembly with the 4 bolts can be repaired in which case the whole pinion mechanism with the clutch has to be pulled out toward the front of the machine. The pony has to be raised a little on the pinion side so that the gears clear each other.
Reach in thru the access hole and see if the bolts came loose.

kdreed88
03-03-2015, 02:08 PM
In Toby's second video he shows the latches and the 4 bolts with keeper plate that holds the assembly on the pinion shaft--it's not actually the gear that becomes loose but the assembly. the latches can be adjusted thru the access hole but I doubt the assembly with the 4 bolts can be repaired in which case the whole pinion mechanism with the clutch has to be pulled out toward the front of the machine. The pony has to be raised a little on the pinion side so that the gears clear each other.
Reach in thru the access hole and see if the bolts came loose.


Thanks dpendzic,

Are you talking about these 4 bolts in the picture attached? You mention that you're not sure if the assembly with the 4 bolts can be repaired. Are you referring to it not being repairable while attached to the D4, or does something actually need to be replaced? If a replacement part is needed, what is it exactly?

Unfortunately I live a few hours away from the D4 and will hopefully be able to do some work on it this weekend and if so, I want to get any parts ordered that we might need.50135

dpendzic
03-03-2015, 02:38 PM
yes--those bolts are the ones that may come loose---if there is damage in there then the assembly would have to be pulled and see what new parts are needed--no way of guessing what you need. You may be able to tighten the bolts thru the access hole but I have trouble getting my hands in there. there are also other potential problems such as chipped gears, bent gear shafts, etc---so check the easier fix's first and work from there.
If you have a machine to pull start the D4 that would be great to check out the rest of the dozer before you start tearing into the pony motor and pinion assembly

kdreed88
03-04-2015, 08:21 AM
Thanks for the info again! I did find this video as well (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKI3wTZU4AA) about how its all put together so I have a much better understanding now of how the mechanism works.

I talked with my Uncle again last night and he believes (keep in mind this was almost 20 years ago) that the adjustment on the Pinion Latches were adjusted as far as they would go. With that being the case, could the latches & stop be out of alignment or worn down?

One other tidbit that I discovered from my Grandma was this. Years ago a friend of my Grandpa came and looked at it (he was a mechanic for Cat years and years ago) and said there was a problem that could be one of two things (she doesn't remember one of them, but was told it was a simple fix). The other was more complex and put the repair into the "not sure if its worth it" category just because of cost alone. The repair had to do with something in a hard to reach place that would either require removing the diesel engine, or torching a hole in the side somewhere. That was as much info as she could remember. Any thoughts on what that elusive repair could be?

The fun part: we're going to be starting to work on it this weekend and hopefully make some progress and re-discover what is and isn't working as we clean things up and move through the start-up process. :D

dpendzic
03-04-2015, 10:18 AM
it could be many things--loose bolts,worn latch nut,worn latches,broken spring--worn gear----i think the big repair would be a worn ring gear on the flywheel which involves pulling the engine

There are many Cat experts out in California that would help you out---so don't hesitate to contact them and perhaps they could do an onsite assessment or even repair of your D4.

kdreed88
03-08-2015, 10:31 PM
Thanks everyone for your input, I really appreciate it!

So, I went up to the old cat yesterday and did a bunch of work on it (checked/filled fluids, linkages, free movement of motors, etc). We did get a chance to start the pony motor up yesterday, and I'm happy to say it started up with a little fuss (it took about 30 minutes of fiddling with it and getting over the learning curve). I have posted a video of it on youtube here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoGwbj_6lRk) showing the pony running without too much of a hassle.

We made the decision to start from the beginning and see where we ended up during the process to identify any problems, which leads to the following information.

After about 1/2 way into the video, we had been running the pony motor for a little bit and decided to start working with the diesel engine. In the last 1/2 of the video, you'll see me pulling the pinion brake and engaging the pinion gear. Now at the moment I don't recall, but I seem to remember having to hold the pinion engagement lever in place while cranking on the diesel motor, almost as if the latches aren't grabbing. Now, while that shouldn't be the case, there was something more apparent that caught our attention. I never got a chance to push the clutch lever over center, but as I engaged it (and got the diesel spinning), we heard (and I felt in the pinion lever) a knocking sound. We didn't hear it in the diesel at really low RPM, but as we spun it up it sort of just, appeared.

My thought is that something within the pinion housing is loose and needs to be fixed. With it being 4PM at the end of the video, we decided it was a good spot to stop and do some more research gathering.

So one of the main questions is this, is the knocking normal? If not, is the next step to pull out the pinion gear and look at it?

Thanks so much! Hope you all enjoy the video!

cojhl2
03-09-2015, 07:17 AM
Well we can't (at least I can't) hear the knocking out here but a note or two: 1)Why as the starting engine was warming up weren't you trying to determine why it was running on 1 cyl, spark, gas etc. 2) from the looks of your arms were you using the clutch brake, it did not look as though you were, so was the pinion in gear all the way and is the noise you hear the pinion grinding?, 3)There is no way the diesel was in warmup mode. the starting engine must be running much better than it was to get that done.

Here is what I would do, 1st get the starting engine to urn correctly, it sounded like it was starving for fuel. Then make sure the clutch is adjusted correctly so you can get snap it over center, but not too loose. Then taking the facts that there have been issues before, start removing the pinion assembly.

Good luck, I am jealous it looks like a pretty good tractor.

BTW, was the knocking caused by the pinion slipping in and out of mesh as you were holding the pinion in gear?

catsteve
03-09-2015, 07:24 AM
i can't see it suggested here anywhere.
Why have we not pull started the diesel yet?
can then test the condition of steering clutches etc. before spending big $$$

dpendzic
03-09-2015, 08:09 AM
the pony should not be run too long with out the diesel spinning as diesel water pump produces the coolant flow.
did you get a chance to check the fuel pressure and oil pressure gauges when the diesel was spinning?
Have you reached in thru the access hole to see if the end of the pinion assembly is tight to the shaft? if its loose then pull the pinion assembly and check it out
a knocking noise is not normal

kdreed88
03-09-2015, 08:52 AM
Thanks for the input guys!

@cojhl2: Given that it hasn't ran in so many years (and I was very young when it did the last time) I didn't realize it was only running on 1 cyl, so that will have to be figured out next time I go up to work on it. The clutch feels pretty good from what I can tell, not too loose and not too tight. When everything is off, I definitely feel it "snap" over center, and when I pull it back, it again "snaps" over center. We didn't hear any sort of grinding coming from the pinion gear, just a fairly rhythmic "knock" to go with it. And yeah, I know I had a hard time hearing it in the video, but I also know where it was happening at.

@catsteve: The steering clutches were rebuilt shortly before it was parked (we could only turn it one direction before that), so were not focusing on that at the moment. Given that it is my grandma's, her condition on getting it running is that it must move under its own power and not pull start it because if we pull it out and can't get it started again, there's no easy way to get it under protection if it fails to start. (We did pull start it around 1995, but it took 4 trucks to do it and no one in the family wants to do that again).

@dpendzic: Thanks for the info, we did have water in the coolant system, but I didn't know that the diesel supplied the flow. The fuel pressure gauge on the front of the diesel is stuck all the way to the right so that will be hard to check lol. The other thing to is that we never actually got the clutch engaged to the point where I could move around and look at them. I never pulled off the access cover on Saturday, mainly cause it was late in the day and very warm. I'll look in the parts book and see where the cover is and take a look at it while everything is still cool. I think the tricky part will be getting around the fixed hydraulic lines that are right in front of everything. As for the knocking, thats a big reason why we stopped, so that's definitely on our todo list.

dpendzic
03-09-2015, 09:52 AM
yes you have to be a contortionist to do a lot of the inspection and maintenance work on these Cats. adjusting the main clutch and greasing the pilot bearing from the inside grease fitting is among them---my parts book also shows an external grease fitting on front of the flywheel which may be accessed thru a plate on the right side of the engine by the flywheel

Neil
03-09-2015, 11:11 AM
The thought occurred to me is that if the latches are adjusted too tight, it might be preventing you from fully latching the pinion in. The knocking sound could just be the typical throbbing noise that comes from the ring gear and pinion turning - could also be one or more teeth are a little short

kdreed88
03-09-2015, 11:15 AM
@dpendzic: Thanks! I have the parts books with me and check them out and make sure I'm reading them correctly.

@Neil: When I engage the pinon gear, should I feel something click into place (like when the latches attach to the stop), or will it be a pretty seamless transition?

dpendzic
03-09-2015, 01:08 PM
you might feel a little click when engaging the latches but the real telltale is with the pinion latched the handle should flop up and down without any resistance--thats because the pinion gear is latched and the spring that pushes the pinion gear out is compressed---hence no load on the gear/pinion

cojhl2
03-09-2015, 01:58 PM
the pony should not be run too long with out the diesel spinning as diesel water pump produces the coolant flow.


That is a darn good point. The D2 Starting engine does not have a water pump.

Neil
03-09-2015, 02:09 PM
Hi Kreed, exactly as Dan mentioned - the lever should flop down because it's not holding the pinion against the release spring. Best approach is if you can get your buddy to work the lever up and down while you take a look inside. The two latches are supposed to latch over the end of a bolt that has flat sections to allow the latches to grab hold. If he pulls up on the lever firmly and the pinion moves into engagement then back out again when he lets the lever go, the pinion is not latching. Try loosening the latches off so that the top of the adjusting screws (two of) are level with the outside of the collar that they screw into. If before you start, they're below the level, then they could well be too tight. You "should" turn them out the same number of turns for each screw, but do take a look to see if they're roughly the same level after turning each an equal number of turns. If they're noticeably different, then we'll have to figure it out from there (might require pulling the pinion assembly so we can take a good look.

Dozerman51
03-09-2015, 10:50 PM
It looks to me like you need to raise the pony and remove the starter pinion and clutch assembly. IMHO you are doing more damage to the assembly by holding the pinion handle up to keep it engaged with the flywheel. I also noticed that the pony was spinning real fast on start up. Are you putting 12 volts through the original 6 volt starter? You can do that for short periods of time and not burn out the 6 volt starter, but if you run 12 volts long enough through the starter and then go back running 6 volts through it you may have problems. My advice, keep it all 6 volts or convert to all 12 volts.
J. Giraud
San Carlos, CA
40' Cat D2/3J
41' Dodge WC-12 1/2 ton Military 4x4 Pick-up

kdreed88
03-14-2015, 02:40 PM
So I'm currently working on the D4 (taking a lunch break) and was planning on starting to remove the pony to pull the pinion assembly out. I was in the process of exposing the mounting bolts from beneath 50 years of gunk and had a thought to follow up on. With everything off, I engaged the clutch and turned the diesel fan a little bit, and to my surprise the pony turned with it! So it would appear, that the pinion gear is latched in place (which explains having no real resistance when pulling on the pinion lever.

So with that, it looks like its time to work on the pony and get it firing on all cylinders again. The question that does come up is this: since the pinion is latched, is the only way to release it done by starting the diesel, and if so, what do we need to look out for?

Thanks!

old-iron-habit
03-14-2015, 04:15 PM
So I'm currently working on the D4 (taking a lunch break) and was planning on starting to remove the pony to pull the pinion assembly out. I was in the process of exposing the mounting bolts from beneath 50 years of gunk and had a thought to follow up on. With everything off, I engaged the clutch and turned the diesel fan a little bit, and to my surprise the pony turned with it! So it would appear, that the pinion gear is latched in place (which explains having no real resistance when pulling on the pinion lever.

So with that, it looks like its time to work on the pony and get it firing on all cylinders again. The question that does come up is this: since the pinion is latched, is the only way to release it done by starting the diesel, and if so, what do we need to look out for?

Thanks!

I would bet there is at least a 99 percent chance it will kick out when the main starts, if not before, as it will if the latches need adjusting as many do. Be sure the clutch is in the release position when trying to start the pony so it will crank easier and start without load. If it does not kick out when the main starts, shut the main off again by closing the throttle over the indent all the way closed, and we will go from there.

Deas Plant.
03-14-2015, 04:37 PM
Hi, Kdreed88.
If you go down that road of trying to start the diesel to see if the pony pinion unlatches, keep your hands VERY close to the diesel throttle. If the diesel starts and the pinion doesn't unlatch, it will over-speed the pony in pretty short order and you will need to be VERY quick to shut the diesel down - or get the pinion clutch disengaged. Or BOTH.

It might be a good idea to have one finger on top of the pinion lever gently holding it toward the engaged position so that you can more readily feel if it does unlatch. But I would think that the pony revs will give you a clue too.

Just my 0.02.

edb
03-14-2015, 06:22 PM
This tutorial, and the others, by Sasquatch should be mandatory viewing by new Cat owners :-) and in the sticky info area for all to find easily.
Some one recently posted some pliers they modified to get into the hole and de-latch the latches.

The latches can be de-latched by pushing hard on one latch end--where the adjuster screw is--with a suitable bar thru the small round access cover just in front of the left brake pedal, it is held on with two 1/4" bolts.
With the pinion engaged you need to turn the pony flywheel to rotate a latch into view. The two latches are linked together and so only one needs to be moved to de-latch both.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo0m1XBqdBY

Hope it helps.
Cheers,
Eddie B.

BillWalter
03-14-2015, 06:36 PM
Looks like you're getting a lot of very good advice. Just hang in there. About that fuel gauge. That is the type that is made like the early oil pressure gauges. I work on those old gauges. If you would like for me to look at it, I'll give you a "No Charge" inspection as to what ot would take to get it back in working condition, if at all possibel. Bill Walter 7602 E. Forest Lks. Dr. Parkville, Mo. 64152
E-mail; wltrbet@aol.com Cell # 1 816 805 1834

kdreed88
03-17-2015, 08:57 AM
Thanks guys!

We've decided that the next time we work on it were going to attempt to start up the diesel with everything in its current state, with the exception of the pony motor obviously. We'll very closely monitor the pinion gear and if its not unlatching, we'll make kill and/or disengage the pinion clutch to prevent damage to the pony motor.

(Partially thinking out loud for the following)
Coming back to the pony motor, since it is running on only one cylinder, here's some more info that I have on it. I do believe it has compression in both cylinders. When I rotate the pull-rope pulley, it rotates about 180 degrees and hits compression from each cylinder. So with that being the case, I don't think its lacking anything there. I thought about fuel delivery, but I don't think that would be an issue since its not fuel injected and the one cylinder works just fine (don't know what cylinder yet - will have to research that next time). With all that, it leads to me thinking that something isn't right with the electrical and no spark is being generated. I do know for sure that spark is being generated on the left side of the cat, so the magneto is working for at least one side. Is it possible the magneto isn't working for the right side, or is that a all or nothing component? I think I heard my dad say he repaired/replaced it not too long before it sat.

So with that, is there anything else it might be?

@edb: Thanks for the pictures showing the pinion access! I'm assuming this access is underneath the cat below the brake pedal? I tried thumbing through the parts books and wasn't able to locate it anywhere.

Thanks again guys! I really appreciate it!

Garlic Pete
03-17-2015, 09:26 AM
kdreed88 - I think you're on the right track considering an attempt to start the main on the next try. As for the pony, definitely check your spark, it is easy to do and you can either rule it in or out. You can do so with one of those inline spark testers. If you don't have one of those, just pull a plug and ground it outside the cylinder, then have someone watch while you pull the rope. If that plug is sparking, do the same on the other side.

It is a very common occurrence, however, to have these ponies run on one cylinder when they're a little starved for fuel. I can't explain it, but when they lean out, I've seen them run on one cylinder until the lean condition is fixed. I've seen them do it because the carburetor passages are dirty and need to be cleaned (especially the cross passage under the bottom of the bowl, which seems to always be in the process of plugging no matter what you do.)

I've also seen them run on one cylinder when the line from the tank is partially plugged, allowing some flow, but not enough, and also recently on one where the sediment bowl gasket had swelled, partially plugging the flow through there.

You may be able to get the second cylinder to cut in, or fire occasionally by choking it a bit. Many of them with plugged carburetors or restricted fuel flow will only run with the choke nearly or fully closed. If it runs on one cylinder, but the second cuts in intermittently or completely when choke is applied, you can count on your problem being fuel flow, not spark.

Hope this helps,

Pete.

dpendzic
03-17-2015, 01:36 PM
the pinion access hole that eddie showed you is on top of the bell housing just above the left brake pedal
Garlic Pete's advice is right on--when you have the pony running just feel each head and the cold one is the one not firing---so pull that plug to check for spark

kdreed88
03-18-2015, 02:24 PM
Thanks guys!

So I'm trying to put together a sequence of events that may need to be resolved depending upon what we find out next and were still having problems getting both cylinders firing.
1) Check Spark
2) Check fuel flow

* Clean/blow out fuel lines

* Clean out carburetor
3) Adjust carburetor
4) ..... What else

If we have to disassemble the carburetor to check the passageways, should I order a gasket kit as well?

Garlic Pete
03-18-2015, 03:31 PM
Check spark first (quick easy and definitive). Also, I've never seen one have trouble on only one cylinder, unless the plug wire is damaged or something simple. Usually, if the magneto works to one side, it works to the other.

Next, check fuel flow. Disconnect the fuel line at the carburetor, open the valve and let it flow for a little while. Of course, be sensible and recognize you're going to have gasoline everywhere, so don't smoke or have ignition sources anywhere around. The way that carburetor is mounted, it'll be darn near impossible to move the fuel line into a position where you can catch the fuel in a can. If you're really well equipped, you might be able to unscrew the line and slip an appropriately sized inside diameter rubber fuel line over the end of the line so that you can catch the output and not make a mess.

What you want to see is a nice, steady consistent stream of fuel. Ideally it will flow about the diameter of the line and have some small pressure. You also want to see that steady stream for at least maybe ten or twenty seconds. Many people have been fooled by an immediate rush of fuel, but if they had waited, they'd see that once the line drained, there was a restriction at the tank. There is also the possibility of a plugged tank vent. In this case, it will flow strong for five to fifteen seconds or more, but as a vacuum develops, flow rate will drop off and eventually even stop. If this happens, take the cap off and see if you have a change in flow rate.

If the fuel flow checks out good, you get the pleasure of removing the carburetor and inspecting and cleaning it. You'll have to remove the hood, pony air cleaner and clean air passage, probably the pony governor and anything else that is in the way. Even after removing everything, I still use a wrench which I heated and bent to get to one of the two carburetor base nuts.

After you get the carburetor off, carefully disassemble it, inspecting and cleaning as you go. These carburetors are generally very simple, easy to logic your way through and usually I can get by without a kit or gasket set. Really, almost every time I have this trouble, the culprit is the very small passage across the bottom of the bowl from the jet which is near the middle to a vertical passage up the side of the bowl.

Even if you turn off the fuel and run the carburetor dry every time you use the engine, this passage will accumulate tiny dust, varnish and goopy crud. The only real way to clean this passage is to drill out the small soft plugs on each end and, by hand, use a small drill bit to ream the passage out. After cleaning it really well, you can replace the soft plugs, if you have some tiny ones, glue or epoxy in a small BB, thread and screw in a machine screw or whatever you need to do to clean that passage.

I have seen some of these center passages which were partially plugged, but usually, if I can blow compressed air into the jet at the bottom of the bowl and get some out of the other end of the passage, it is sufficiently clean. Honestly though, most of the time this passage is plugged solid on any pony which runs on one cylinder or requires continuous choke.

If you get the carburetor cleaned and remounted, you'll know you have spark and you have fuel flow. After that, I can't imagine why she won't start on the first pull and run strong, so then you can focus on the main engine and rest of the tractor.

Pete.

Deas Plant.
03-18-2015, 04:03 PM
Hi, Garlic Pete.
Never seen magneto problems on one side and not the other????????? You would have LOVED a2U D8 that I operated for a (short) while in 1971. It would NOT run on BOTH cylinders unless the rear spark plug was connected to the body of the motor somehow. Never did find out WHY. A Cat mechanic called out to fix it, got the pony running - on one, used a plastic-handled screw driver to short out the plugs to see which one wasn't working. At the first attempt, he shorted out the front plug and the pony stopped dead. Got it running again - on one, shorted out the rear plug - - -- and it ran on both. Took the screw driver away and it went back to running on one.

No amount of investigation revealed any cause for it so he installed a wire from the top of the rear spark plug to the body of the pony and it ran very sweetly on two cylinders. It STAYED like that until it was traded on a new D7F a couple of months later.

Just my 0.02.

Rome K/G
03-18-2015, 06:59 PM
Did they ever try a different spark plug????? sounds like a bad plug to me...
Gary

thistlemagnate
03-18-2015, 07:06 PM
I don't see a round inspection hole like that on this old RD4. When I had a stuck pinion, I tried monkeying around under the square inspection plate that you open to adjust the starting motor clutch, but that didn't do me much good. It did kick out when the main started, thankfully. If it hadn't, I figured all I had to do was release the starting clutch, which would be faster than scrambling up to fumble with the throttle. (Edit: And leaves you with a running main engine.) Am I missing something?
Jerry


I would bet there is at least a 99 percent chance it will kick out when the main starts, if not before, as it will if the latches need adjusting as many do. Be sure the clutch is in the release position when trying to start the pony so it will crank easier and start without load. If it does not kick out when the main starts, shut the main off again by closing the throttle over the indent all the way closed, and we will go from there.

Deas Plant.
03-18-2015, 08:27 PM
Hi, Rome/KG.
Now you've got me doing a head scratch. Why would a bad plug work when connected to the body of the pony and not when connected to the magneto?

They tried all manner of things, new spark plugs, clean the magneto points, etc., etc., etc. Just could not get spark to go down that wire to the plug. Even changed the leads. No go. Connect the plug to the body of the motor and it was as happy as a porker in p - p - p - p - p - whatever that stuff is.

Mind you, it was a bit of a worry at first 'cos they put the wire from the plug to the carby drain screw. Being the nearest easy point, I suppose.

Just my 0.02.

edb
03-18-2015, 10:23 PM
Hi Jerry,
the access hole/cover did not appear on RD4's until RD4 4G9401, by my Parts Book.
Cheers,
Eddie B.

Rome K/G
03-19-2015, 06:25 PM
I was thinking with the jumper wire on the plug it was working as a ground for the electrode on the plug, if the plug was shorted out inside it would not be sending current down through the plug to the electrode end to make the spark. Confused!, lol, ask Doc Brown, maybe its not getting the 1.21 jiggawatts needed to produce a big blue spark. Great scott !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Deas Plant.
03-19-2015, 06:55 PM
Hi, ROME/KG.
Dunno about that jumper wire bit. The wire from the plug to the body of the motor was attached to the TOP of the plug on the post where the normal spark plug lead attaches and the spark plug lead was still in place. The 'extra' wire was NOT attached to the base of the plug as I would expect it to be if it was acting as an earth. Also, different spark plugs gave the same result.

The only explanation that makes any sense at all to me is that the magneto cap had a crack that was letting that spark 'escape' into the body of the pony motor and it was being picked up again by the extra wire. Whether or not this is possible, I have no idea. That said,the 'extra' wire was only a normal 3 mm - 1/8" - auto electrical wire.

A kew-ree-yuss mind would like to know.

Rome K/G
03-19-2015, 07:04 PM
That may be a possibility also??????????

Rome K/G
03-19-2015, 07:07 PM
Another thought, was the plug wire (the main lead) going through a steel tube or clamped along the way and shorting through?

kdreed88
03-21-2015, 12:04 PM
Thanks all for the input! Next weekend should be a lot of fun hopefully!

I was on the phone with my grandma, and there was some recommendation that when the time comes to start moving the D4, it needs to move back and forth. She didn't recall what the reason was, but I'm hoping someone can give some insight to this. My theory is that because its been sitting for so long, the grease in the track system need to re-lube everything. If that is the case, with where the D4 is currently parked, there isn't a whole lot of room behind it (maybe a few feet) to move it back and forth. If it does need to be rocked, can we move it out of the shed, turn it, and then start working the grease in again where we have a whole lot more room?

dpendzic
03-21-2015, 12:47 PM
the only thing that I can think of is that some pins/bushings/links have froze up---you will notice kinks in the tracks where they are froze--generally you can run the machine and the tracks will turn even with the kinks--penetrating oil on the pins/links will help along with a heavy hammer to get them to move--- and going forward and backward will also help
there is no way to grease them---you may have sealed and lubricated pins/bushings if the tracks have been replaced but they are lifetime sealed.
also if you get it rolling make sure that all the rollers are turning and not froze up.

Neil
03-21-2015, 01:40 PM
Kreed, if your track pins are tight, they'll loosen up with use. In any case, do not lubricate the pins/bushings, even if they're the lubricated type. If some joints are really tight, hose them down with water and they'll loosen up. But mostly, just drive it lots and they'll free up. Your grandma's advice is probably related to a) keeping the final drive seals free and easy, b) using the clutches so they stay usable, c) keeping the tracks free

kdreed88
03-27-2015, 09:12 PM
So we attempted to get it started today and made some progress, but not as much as we had hoped. We are all in agreement that the pony is running on both cylinders now. I took the carb apart and found a (very old) gasket/o-ring in one of the passageways to be no good, mostly blocking the fuel orofice to the throttle body. Upon replacing that (and setting the needles to their recommended start position) we started up the pony and made the adjustments so it was running with clear smoke. The good sign is that the pony consistantly starts up within just a few seconds now, and not even with the aid of starting fluid.

However we're still having problems getting the diesel spinning up fast enough. As I start moving the clutch to go over center (and get the diesel spinning up as well), the pony lags down like it doesn't have enough power. We gave full throttle and it sitll didn't seem to be enough. I disassembled the govenor and checked it all out and it looks like its good. Is there any way to get the pony to spin any faster? The throttle linkage was wide open and there was no choke set as well.

Finally, as we were trying to get the diesel spinning up and fully engaged, we did both feel & hear the knock again. I was feeling it through the clutch level and also when kneeling down on the track. My dad was on the opposite track and could hear it and slightly feel it through that track. This is a little concerning to us as we don't know whats causing it. I finally found the access cover for the pinion assembly - ours is located through a square plate beneath the air cleaner. If i kneel down juuuuuust right I can actually see about 1/2 of the pinion assembly. It looks really good actually, nothing out of the ordinary. (By the way, the pinion gear did release at one point while spinning up the diesel). I manually released the pinion gear so I could inspect it via touch. The only thing I noticed was a little bit of play (maybe 1/16" or so). Maybe this is the knock? The pinion is not using the bolt & wire retainment system, but the newer one with the locking spacer.

Few other notes:
* When starting the pony motor, occassionly the fan for the diesel would turn with the clutch disengaged. Could this be water flow moving through the pump at first? It would maybe spin for a few seconds and quit.

* There was one point as we were trying to spin up the diesel that it felt like it (for lack of a better word) siezed up. I know for a fact that there is oil in the crankcase (I did reconfirm it after). After letting the diesel sit for a bit, it seemed to un-seize and I could turn it over again without any problems. The compression lever was in the "Start" position so i know it wasn't that (I did cycle the lever just in case but no change).

Other than that, if we were to give this thing a brain, we all feel like its warming up to the idea of starting. each time we start the pony, we get a little further with it, but not quite enough.

I did some reading on old posts, and it sounds like letting the pony warm up For a few minutes may help. The questions become is this okay, and if so for how long? I don't want to burn up the pony without coolant running. Also, even if the starting clutch isn't over center, will having the clutch partially engaged and the diesel spinning help prevent overheating?

If anyone happens to be near the Red Bluff area tomorrow (3/28/15) and would like to check it out, we'd like that (message me and we'll figure out a plan). Of course, I will take any ideas & suggestions that might be available and try those out for sure.

Thanks!

drujinin
03-28-2015, 06:00 AM
The fan spins because the pony clutch is dragging.
Run that clutch either engaged fully or totally disengaged. Partial engagement is not good for it!
Run the pony for a minute or two without coolant flow will not hurt it. You can feel the heat on the pony heads.
You have verified oil pressure on the main engine?
You need to spin the main long enough to feel all over to guess/determine where the knocking is coming from before you start it.
Could be main clutch linkage parts, could be rod/piston?
I suggest you find the source before starting main engine.
IMO

Sasquatch
03-28-2015, 07:19 AM
Just a couple more things to add in conjunction with drujinin's post - the square cover that you're looking through to see the pinion is actually the main clutch adjustment access cover, your D4 does have a seperate pinion access cover positioned specifically for accessing the pinion only. When viewed from sitting in the operator's seat, the pinion access cover will be to the left of the square main clutch access cover and slightly forward of it, positioned just a few inches back from the bell housing/transmission housing flanges. It is a round cover approx. 2 1/2" to 3" in diameter and is held on by two small bolts that if I remember correctly require a 7/16" wrench to remove. You may have to remove the left side foot plate to see it, but I guarantee it is there. But don't worry, since you've already got the square main clutch cover off, you'll be able to look in there as you're spinning the diesel to see if anything looks like it's flopping around causing the knocking noise you're hearing.

Other than that, with the diesel compression lever in the START position the pony should have no trouble at all spinning the engine over assuming the compression release still works (everything still in proper adjustment). A bent rod/broken piston could cause a steady knocking as the engine is cranked over but it would be steadily rythmic instead of rather intermittent. About the only other things I can think of is possibly a leaking injector filling the combustion chamber full of fuel (rather unlikely though) or something loose in either the pony clutch assembly or main clutch assembly that's floating/flying around and causing your condition.


*Edit: Here's a couple of pics I snapped of the pinion access cover on a Cat grader, but it's in roughly the same place on your D4 and the cover is actually the same. Hope this helps!

http://i802.photobucket.com/albums/yy310/TRNelson/photo%2038_zpspzth0vbl.jpg (http://s802.photobucket.com/user/TRNelson/media/photo%2038_zpspzth0vbl.jpg.html)


http://i802.photobucket.com/albums/yy310/TRNelson/photo%2039_zpsi0ajtiaf.jpg (http://s802.photobucket.com/user/TRNelson/media/photo%2039_zpsi0ajtiaf.jpg.html)

old-iron-habit
03-28-2015, 07:37 AM
I also think the noise is most likely in the starting or clutch mechanism. Many make a fair amount of noise when cranking, especially if they are a bit out of adjustment. Try using a piece of 3/4 dowel or a 2 ft piece of broomstick touching one end on suspect area of the Cat and the other end to your ear to listen. An engine knock loud enough to hear before running when only cranking is usually very easy to identify as coming from the engine. I went through Red Bluff a week ago. It would have been fun to stop and check it out.

ccjersey
03-28-2015, 07:52 AM
Have you tried opening the high speed mixture screw a little more? The pony should have plenty of power to spin the diesel when you push the throttle knob all the way in. If you want check the governor response, when you have the diesel spinning with decompression lever on RUN (in) and the pony lugs down, reach over and push the governor arm and linkage to the opposite side of the tractor. If it has no room to go any farther to right side of machine, the governor has throttle wide open already and you probably still have a fuel supply problem.

Many pony motors with partially plugged carb passages will have more power if run with choke at about 3/4 on. This will not help if the restriction to supply is in the tank valve, fuel line or carb float valve.

The passage most often clogged and limiting power is across the bottom of the bowl and connects the high speed jet with the adjustment needle to the high speed metering well that is held in with a hex head plug next to throttle body. I had no success blowing it clear with compressed air. The air went through and I thought it was all good, but the pony still had no power. It is a worn engine that the dipstick jumps up and down when it runs and I assumed that was as good as it could do.

A couple years later I had to clean the carb just to get it to run and bit the bullet and did it properly. Drilling the soft plug and reaming the passage with a drill bit made a new pony out of it. Dipstick still jumps up an down and engine is still worn out, but it will easily start the diesel.

juiceman
04-22-2015, 09:35 AM
Just wondering if you have made any further progress. Some of us are in suspense! Whatever happens, don't let a couple of hiccups discourage you from getting the old girl running. A year ago, one of my farmer tenants sold me a D47U that hadn't been run in over 15 years, and had been basically left outside to rot. Long story short, I was determined to make her a runner again. You should've seen the look on the previous owners face! Hah! That was about 5 Cats ago; lots of fun. Please give us an update. Juiceman

jbernd56
04-22-2015, 05:56 PM
Is the main flywheel clutch engaged or disengaged? When I was trying to get mine started the first time, the pony would bog down when trying to turn the diesel. Turned out the flywheel clutch although disengaged according to the lever, was rusted and swelled up and putting pressure on the brake that stops the clutch from turning when shifting.

Before, I could turn the diesel with a wrench and cheater. After I took the clutch brake apart (only two bolts) you could spin the diesel by hand. Pony had no trouble spinning enough to start.

kdreed88
04-25-2015, 12:17 PM
Sorry for keeping the suspense with this, things have been really busy recently.

Last time I worked on it gave the same results as before. I completely disassembled the carb and found that one of the old cork gaskets down in the carb bowl was shriveled and restricting flow to the pony. I went to an auto-parts store and picked up a new rubber o-ring to replace it and put it all back together. During the cleaning i did soak many of the parts in carb cleaner to help loosen up any gunk that was in there. After reassembling it and the rest of the pony motor, we went about trying to start it up again. We are happy in the fact that the pony starts up within a few seconds of turning it over with the electric motor, without the assistance of any starting fluid. We love that its not very temperamental during startup. I did find that the throttle linkage wasn't setup correctly during the re-assembly so I fixed that.

However, with all that work it produced the same results. I do believe at this time that there is a fuel flow issue somewhere in the system because as I move the throttle/choke to keep the pony running smoothly (especially at higher RPM), there is quite a bit of popping as it picks up speed. My next thing I'm going to do is pull the carb off and have someone look at it at a cat shop thats not far from where I look and see if they can give some insight.

In terms of doing any major work on it again, thats probably not going to happen until this fall. Between my really bad allergies, the onslaught of summer, and the extremely dry grass thanks to the drought, we decided to wait until things get better. The last time I was working on it a few weeks back, everything was blooming up in Red Bluff and I was having a hard time working on it. Plus with the cat being enclosed in a metal-roofed shed, during summer it'll be over 100 degrees in there by 10 or 11am which won't be very fun. I do plan on doing small amounts of work to take parts on or off as needed, but we won't try starting the diesel up again until the weather begins cooling off again.

I really do appreciate everyone's input and I really do want to get the D4 running again, but for now it'll have to wait.

Thanks for all you input and I look forward to working on it again!

mrsmackpaul
04-25-2015, 01:50 PM
sounds like maybe you have a vacume leak somewhere I seem to recall on here somewhere else the same problem and it ended up been a gasket had shrunk or a cover had come loose on the pilot motor itself and all that was required was the nuts to be nipped up it might have been a D2 though so maybe it wont apply here

Paul

old-iron-habit
04-25-2015, 09:16 PM
Lots of posts in the archives about cleaning the pony carb. Sounds like you need to drill the lead plugs out and clean the passages using a drill bit in your hand.

drujinin
04-26-2015, 05:38 AM
I agree that it very well could be another shriveled gasket in the Intake system, popping could also be sticky/leaky valve or even spark jump. I agree with drilling the carb passages as until you take it ALL the WAY apart to clean. You are just chasing your tail!

8C 361
04-26-2015, 07:38 AM
Years back I tore into a pony chasing a single cylinder miss. I got into the top cover, valves and went so far as to pull a piston out. All I found was a pony that was like new inside. All this lead to my Cat being torn down for years. I finally decided to put it back together thinking I would just pull start it for the rest of its life. When I pulled it out of the garage it would not turn over due to a mouse having nested in a cylinder. I solved that with air hose in the intake and shop vac on exhaust with open valve on that cylinder and bumping the intake.

I solved the one cylinder miss on the pony by simply taking the top of the carb off and cleaning the carb in place. Since then it has proven to be the best starting pony of all my Cats.

Moral of story: If it ain't broke don't fix it. Don't take the carb off if you don't have to. Never give up.

Good luck

Tom

rmyram
04-26-2015, 09:27 AM
i have a pony that has a single cylinder miss when. the points are hanging up and not closeing fast enough. are you sure your magneto is in good shape? rotor, cap, wires, points all up to snuff?

kdreed88
11-28-2015, 10:41 AM
Hello everyone,

I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving! I had the opportunity finally to go back and do a little checking on the D4 and came up with some new information (probably should have been done much earlier). So here goes.

First new tidbit: I checked the compression of the Pony motor, and got 120 psi on the right, and 160 psi on the left. Based on my experience with car engines, the difference should really be no more than 5-10%, so it could be the reason the pony can't handle the load. My dad and I think it could be the head gasket, burnt valve, or bad valve spring.

Second tidbit: During the process of removing the compression tester, one of the O-rings fell into the head on the left side. While looking though the spark plug hole trying to locate it, I tuned the crank by hand and saw (what appears to be) a bunch of fluid rise up toward the valves. It looked like it was fresh oil from when I cranked the pony over for the compression test. So the question here is: does this sound normal? I could easily see fluid rise and fall with the cylinder moving, so its a little concerning if this isn't supposed to be there. During the compression check, we didn't make an attempt to start up the pony motor. Our thought here (unless its normal) is that the rings on the cylinder have gone bad.

[Edit]

I was just talking with my dad about it, and realized that the heads have a drain valve on them, and probably just needs to have any fluids drained. Additionally, would the fluid have an impact on the compression reading?
What is the actual compression value supposed to be? I looked through the books I have, and it isn't listed anywhere.




Thanks guys! I look forward to some input from everyone. :)

cojhl2
11-28-2015, 11:26 AM
It is good practice to open the petcocks and rotate the enginee before starting. It's an horizontal opposed engine so always has possible fluid in compression chamber.

Fluid in compression chamber raises the compression ration and hence more pressure.

I would not worry about the 10% business, this is a low compression simple (and dependable)engine.

The biggest problem you will have is gasoline and carburetor issues. Clean things up and make sure fuel is not an issue.

cheshire cat
11-28-2015, 02:32 PM
That is a darn good point. The D2 Starting engine does not have a water pump.
No pump but unless its got the common problem of the lower water passage blocked up it will circulate as heated coolant rises drawing cold coolant up allowing you to warm the main engine as it was designed to do ,

cheshire cat
11-28-2015, 02:44 PM
Most of the ponys I've messed with had part plugged fuel lines !!! rust and gunk builds up in them and restricts the flow, so it will start and just as you load it up it sputers and dies .... blowing thru them yes they seem ok but even a little resriction will make problems A bit of new copper line and re use the old fittings and its happy days ...

Neil
11-28-2015, 05:20 PM
Hello everyone,

I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving! I had the opportunity finally to go back and do a little checking on the D4 and came up with some new information (probably should have been done much earlier). So here goes.

First new tidbit: I checked the compression of the Pony motor, and got 120 psi on the right, and 160 psi on the left. Based on my experience with car engines, the difference should really be no more than 5-10%, so it could be the reason the pony can't handle the load. My dad and I think it could be the head gasket, burnt valve, or bad valve spring.

Second tidbit: During the process of removing the compression tester, one of the O-rings fell into the head on the left side. While looking though the spark plug hole trying to locate it, I tuned the crank by hand and saw (what appears to be) a bunch of fluid rise up toward the valves. It looked like it was fresh oil from when I cranked the pony over for the compression test. So the question here is: does this sound normal? I could easily see fluid rise and fall with the cylinder moving, so its a little concerning if this isn't supposed to be there. During the compression check, we didn't make an attempt to start up the pony motor. Our thought here (unless its normal) is that the rings on the cylinder have gone bad.

[Edit]

I was just talking with my dad about it, and realized that the heads have a drain valve on them, and probably just needs to have any fluids drained. Additionally, would the fluid have an impact on the compression reading?
What is the actual compression value supposed to be? I looked through the books I have, and it isn't listed anywhere.




Thanks guys! I look forward to some input from everyone. :)
That's plenty of compression - the problem is fuel and/or ignition. Just open the petcocks to drain the oil. Your described symptoms are the same as everyone else's pony so you're good on that score. Let's get your fuel and/or ignition problem sorted out.

boaterri
11-28-2015, 06:13 PM
If you are dealing with an old carburetor an ultrasonic cleaner and mineral spirits are probably your two best friends. I have taken many outboard, lawn mower and chain saw carbs completely apart (including the Welsh plugs), done an overnight soak in mineral spirits and then tossed the whole mess in the ultrasonic cleaner for several cycles. Just be sure that you do the ultrasonic cleaner part outside. Most units have a warning not to use flammable solvents in them but as long as the fluid is no more than warm you will be ok outside.

Rick

kdreed88
02-15-2016, 07:41 PM
The time has come where the weather is nice, cooperating, and new attempts can be made. Not only could they be made, but they were made.

Today was a great day to be out working on the old girl and now were getting some results! My dad and I spent a few hours with her today and made some pretty good progress. Last time we worked on it, we were left with the impression that we were having a fuel delivery issue (made lots of sense) so we went at it today attempting to tackle that issue. To make a long story short, we bypassed the lines that go from the gas tank to the opposite side and back to the carb (ended up going right from the tank to the carb) and started up the pony with no starting fluids. From there, we went through and started the process of turning over the diesel, with much more success. The pony (with some finesse) roared up to full throttle and got the diesel (without compression) spinning freely and very quickly (ours sounded a lot like this youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AoWb57_cV8) with little or no fuss. Once we let it spin for a bit and start warming up the diesel, we flicked the compression lever over, and the pony would slowly stall (about 10-15 seconds). I could take the diesel in and out of compression without the pony motor stalling. Overall, we had a 5-7 minute window where the pony was constantly running. Our theory now is that we need just a little bit more power out of the pony and we'll be in good shape. We attempted to throw some diesel fuel into the equation, but after we had stopped for the day, we realized we had forgot to open the fuel line from the tank. But thats something we'll test later. Our primary issue now is still with the pony. With the diesel spinning, we kept having to use the choke to ensure the pony was running flat out. I had my dad on the carb side trying to adjust the high-speed needle so we could remove the choke, and it didn't seem to have any impact on the pony. Were not sure if this is an issue, or if we need to look into this more. We partially believe that if we had the diesel fuel flowing, the diesel would have started up even with the pony lagging some.

So the question now, is what needs to be done to fix the high-speed flow? Were looking to try again in a few weeks and see where we get.

Thanks!!

danda
02-15-2016, 08:25 PM
for years I had to run my d4 pony at near full choke and minimum throttle. Pushing either control in very far would kill it. power was good sometimes, bad other times.

Finally I removed the carb, drilled the plug, and cleaned the bottom passage. Plugged it again with a bit of solder. After that, I can finally run it without choke and lots of power.

Also, as others have noted and you discovered the fuel line from gas tank to carb is a bad design and tends to plug easily. I installed an inline fuel filter that seems to help.

7upuller
02-15-2016, 08:44 PM
Hey Team,

On one of my Cats, at the gas valve buy pony clutch, I found a screen in the valve that was plugged. Take the gas valve apart and clean it.
Glen

Hillbillybjopkr
02-16-2016, 06:44 PM
when I was getting my D4-7U going....first thing I did was clear all gas lines going to the pony.....rebuilt the pony motor carburetor once I got it home....pony runs like a top now......I grew up in Red Bluff.....lol

edb
02-16-2016, 08:16 PM
http://www.acmoc.org/bb/showthread.php?23449-Some-Small-Horizontal-Starting-Engine-Quirks&highlight=quirks


Cheers,
Eddie B.

Hillbillybjopkr
02-16-2016, 09:36 PM
my carb didn't have that lever.....but yes...if you8 do have it....as close to 90 degrees as possible is preferred......my carb didn't have that.....I adjusteded my screwes...the one on the carb..1/2 turn past recommended setting....screw on the air tunnel...3/4 turn past recommended settings.......I turn both my petcocks pn.....give it about a minute.....choke half..and throttle at minium...pony fires right up.....pop pinion...throttle up..engage pinion shaft.....and pony picks right up.....spins the diesel like it not even there......once I get oil pressure up...I kick in the decompression switch...let the pony roar and main engine build up heat for a few minutes....main enginine pops right up.....have a rebuild kit for my pony sittin at my CAT dealers shop.....took them 2 months to get everything right.....ponys not ready for a rerbuild......but wify has said....eventually...she wants the whole CAT rebuilt......its HER show piece...she says lol

Hillbillybjopkr
02-16-2016, 09:46 PM
she has caught the fever worse than me....I been running equipment 25+ yrs......shes been around it the last 10 yrs with me..lol....she knows how it is...and now...we have our own little dozer...ya...its her machine lol.....the last few weeks we have had our little D4.....she is very happy..lol.......and adding up work lol.....good thing I know how to run it lol

Bret4207
03-10-2016, 09:41 AM
So whats happening in this serial lately? Waiting for the next installment is killing me!

kdreed88
03-10-2016, 10:23 AM
Well, we tried starting it up about a week ago and were left about where we started. The pony was being temperamental (no surprise there) and took some finesse to get running like it did the last time. We still weren't able to get it up to speed so we pulled the carb off (the first time) and found the high-speed screw was able to be turned just by brushing it. So we put it back together and tried again, and were left with the same results. So, for the 2nd time, we pulled the carb off and I proceeded with the process of completely dismantling it so it could be cleaned, drilled, plugged and rebuilt. I was leary to do this as I wasn't sure what plugs were to be drilled out, but I found a thread someone has posted where they completely rebuilt a pony motor and documented the whole process. So using that as a guide, last night I drilled the plugs and bored the passageways, soaked the carb in cleaner, and will begin rebuilding it over the weekend. With the onslaught of storms supposed to come through this weekend, most likely we'll try again in a week and see what happens.

Haven't given up on it!

Thanks for all the help guys!

STEPHEN
03-10-2016, 10:43 AM
So whats happening in this serial lately? Waiting for the next installment is killing me!
This is more like a pony er,, horse opera. When the pony is right it will sound like a catamount, not bleating like a goat!

Hillbillybjopkr
03-12-2016, 12:31 AM
just out of curiosity....were in Red Bluff are you located...I grew up there out in Red Bank

kdreed88
03-12-2016, 11:23 AM
just out of curiosity....were in Red Bluff are you located...I grew up there out in Red Bank

We're out towards the dump off of Plymire Road. If I remember correctly, quite a bit of the extended family lives out towards the Red Bank area.

On another note: The carb is back in one piece having been cleaned out. Instead of using soft plugs for the passageways, I went the route of tapping and using machine screws to plug them back up, that way it'll be easier to clean again in the future. It'll be a week or two before I get a chance to go back up and put it all back together again. Ill let everyone know how it goes, one way or another.

22runner
03-12-2016, 12:42 PM
I have used machine screws to replace the brass plugs or years on my 22s zenith carburetors with no problems

i do need a source for the brass jets and the fiber washers .

Tom

kdreed88
03-26-2016, 06:36 PM
Well, I put the pony all back together, fired it up and had various success today. I was able to get it to idle with no choke and could even start it in that configuration time and time again. High speed however, that still requires a fair amount of choke. The high speed screw doesn't seem to have any impact on the overall speed when we make an adjustment. Our best bet has been to use the choke to get it to have enough power to spin the big diesel, which does seem to work.

There are some new problems that have crept up now, which put a pretty good stop in the project at the moment. I finally broke down and took out the floor pans so I could gain access to the maintenance cover for the pinion gear so I could release the pinion easier (I was going through the big square opening previously). One issue is the that the diesel clutch engagement doesn't snap over center, which needs an adjustment. The other issue, which is much more critical, is that the diesel "freezes" up and doesn't want to turn with the pinion engaged and the clutch over center. After further troubleshooting, I discovered that the pinion gear is not meshing with the diesel ring gear sometimes and usually takes a beating on the pinion to release it. This last time, I was unable to get it to release so i'm not quite sure where to go next. I feel like I need to pull the pinion assembly out and rebuild it so it will function properly. So with those 3 issues, were back to sorting out what's going on.

I won't be working on it again for at least 2 weeks, so there's time to sort out some ideas on what the best course of action is.

PS. in order to get the pinion assembly out, I have to take off the diesel fuel control lever assembly to have enough room to slide the pinion out correct?

Thanks guys

Neil
03-27-2016, 10:40 AM
Sounds like your main jet system is still partially blocked. Check the main jet in the bottom of the fuel bowl, the compensating jet up underneath that hex plug on the bowl, and the tube that crosses the throttle body (that's where I'd suspect the blockage is), and also the bulls-eye gasket, which has an inner circle that can get destroyed and unless one knows it's supposed to be there, can easily be overlooked.

Your best bet for the pinion would be to remove and rehab it. You could try spraying it down liberally with some diesel or similar to see if that gets it operational enough, but they really prefer to be in good shape and the way to get them there is a disassembly and clean-up. Not sure about the D4 but the D2 governor rear cover is removed to create enough space to pull the pinion assembly out. Engage the pinion before attempting to remove the assembly as this will shorten the overall length making it easier to pull. That written, you may find that the pinion just doesn't want to budge, even though you've removed all FOUR bolts retaining it. There's a 4 inch diameter o-ring that reliably jams things up, so apply plenty of lube (diesel or PB Blaster or whatever you use) and just keep working it to and fro, being very careful not to break the cast housing. Take your time - it will eventually come out (mine took a few days of patient work...)
Sasquatch has a great youtube on the pinion assembly - take a good look at that and you'll see everything you need to know:

general operation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo0m1XBqdBY
mods that Toby found helped braking results - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xb9WzUxo5s (not everyone agrees with this approach so you can make your own call on it, but Toby provides valuable insight into what's going on when braking)

kdreed88
03-27-2016, 12:07 PM
Thanks for the info Neil!

Yeah, I'm definitely concerned about the Ring Gear and Pinion gear with it getting jammed up. I actually took a picture of it yesterday and shows pretty well what's happened. I would agree that the whole pinion and clutch assembly needs some work. I took a screenshot from Youtube (his D4 seems newer than ours, few minor differences) that shows the governor and clutch level, which show how much space there is. I would image the whole unit has to come off before I can try to wiggle out the clutch.

In regards to the pony carb, the main jet you're talking about, is that the one in the center of the bowl beneath the float? I went through the process of cleaning out all of the passageways by drilling out the soft plugs and then both cleaning and dunking the carb in cleaner for a while. I've spent quite a bit of time searching the forums on the carb and only found one good post regarding a cleaning process. Are there any good pictures/diagrams/descriptions as to where those locations are on the carb?

I'll definitely pull the pinion assembly, and most likely the carb as it sounds like something got missed.

Again thanks guys! We're going to try again this coming weekend (one day to disassemble and clean, another to reinstall and start again) and see if we can have any more luck with it.

Sasquatch
03-27-2016, 12:21 PM
You may already know this but I haven't heard it mentioned yet - the pony motor also has to be lifted a couple of inches to get the pinion assembly out, it is necessary to do so to get the big drive gear on the bottom of the pony motor to disengage from the pinion and clear of its housing. It is actually recommended to remove the pony completely so a new base gasket can be installed instead of rolling the dice hoping the old one will seal again. It also gives you an opportunity to ensure the coolant feed passage is open (free from blockage) under the pony motor.

Mike Meyer
03-27-2016, 02:38 PM
I'd try squirting that pony pinion with loose juice over several days and springing the latches a hundred times before I'd remove the pony to do it on the bench because you open a new Pandora's Box once you remove the pilot motor, get the carby passages clean and make sure you have good fuel flow from the gas tank because if it will not run fast it might just be starving of fuel through the tap and line.
Good luck
Mike

Neil
03-27-2016, 02:58 PM
Before you start taking things apart, just to be clear, you're writing that sometimes when you lift the pinion engagement gear to engage the pinion, the pinion gear is not actually engaged with the flywheel ring gear? One thing it could be is that the splines that the pinion slide on are dry/cruddy and although when you lift the lever and believe that it's going into gear, it may actually only sliding along til it jams short of the ring gear (which could also explain why it's hard to disengage - the latches aren't holding it - it's the crud that it's jamming on). If this be the case, then as Mike and I wrote, liberal spraying and sliding of the pinion gear along the splines would hopefully let it slide freely - probably need to cycle it a few dozen times. You can then check to see if the latches are locking in once it seems like it slides the whole way. Just a simple squeeze of the latches is all that's required to disengage the pinion and the spring should slide the pinion back out of the way. Might need a helper to work the lever while you observe the latches click into place.

For the high idle, start from the tank and work downwards ensuring that you have no blockages - I should have written that before - apologies.

Yes the main jet is the one at the bottom of the fuel bowl on the side that the main jet screw adjusts into (it's not that small one in the middle - I can't remember what that one is).
It could be that during cleaning, something dislodged and has partially plugged something again.

catsilver
03-27-2016, 03:26 PM
A simple squeeze of the latches should free the pinion, but don't use your fingers if you wish to keep them, a big screwdriver or crowbar is best.

kdreed88
03-27-2016, 06:19 PM
@Sasquatch - I had read that somewhere (probably on the ACMOC forum) about having to lift the pony up at least some in order to get the pinion assembly out.

@Mike - I agree that going the route of lifting up the pony to work on the pinion can open up a pandoras box. The pinion doesn't seem to have any issues releasing because it actually seems to disengage from the Diesel early and it doesn't take a lot of effort to release it. If you zoom in on the picture I posted earlier, you can actually see the pinion gear tooth is jammed on top of the ring gear tooth.

@Neil - I must not have been clear in my explanation. I have no problem engaging the pinion to the diesel ring gear. The issue seems to be caused on disengagement. However, now that I think about it, that doesn't make logical sense. Could it be I'm trying to engage the pinion before its stopped spinning, and when I engage it, it gets jammed on the diesel and doesn't engage? The engagement lever does provide too much resistance when i'm engaging it, so I don't think the splines are clogged up. The cat was used in a light/mild fashion, so its seen a pretty light workload.

In regards to the fuel/carb issues, I thought I had cleaned them all out. I used this thread (http://www.acmoc.org/bb/showthread.php?20371-Pony-rebuild-in-progress/page2) as a guide on what plugs to drill and replug and thought I got them all, but maybe I missed one. During the rebuild, I did notice that the portion where the high speed screw attaches to the linkage, it was bent so I had rebent it so instead of only moving 1/8", it moves more like 1/4" or even 3/8".

@catsilver - Yeah, I had a split second thought of grabbing it and releasing it, then had the realization that by doing so, I would be asking for trouble. I've always used a piece of rebar / screwdriver to release the latches.

I am considering acquiring a horoscope so that I can snake it down in there and get a really good idea of what is going on and why it is being stubborn and not releasing from the diesel

edb
03-27-2016, 08:18 PM
Hi,
on blowing up your pinion picture some I believe your engagement problem is caused by the ring gear teeth entry tapers being worn off by the spinning pinion during rough engagement, the pinion must be stationary before attempting engagement or this occurs as the Diesel engine usually, most times, stops in one or two places.

I believe the pinion teeth are riding up and jamming on the worn sections of the teeth and so not fully engaging.
Try turning the Diesel, when decompression is active, by the fan about 45 degrees and try the pinion for engagement on hopefully undamaged ring gear teeth.
At The Dealer we often turned the ring gears around a bit to set the damaged sections away from where the normally worn areas were to get another run out of the R/gear.

From your description of having to run with choke on at High Idle it seems your 90 Deg. lever may be bent again, after checking the items others have mentioned you may need to check the lever again.

If your carby has the 90 degree lever for the main jet adjustment then it is still almost undetectable as to when the main jet screw has bottomed--this should only be done by fingers--ensure the screw is free to turn by fingers and adjust it before assembling the carb whilst you can be sure you have not overdone the screw tightening, and you can assist the spring up to save stressing the lever. The main jet return spring is coil bound when the tension is felt for the stop position--the 90 Deg. lever is bent at this time if a screw driver is used and happens before you realise there is extra tension felt at the screw driver.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Eddie B.

drujinin
03-28-2016, 03:11 PM
Runs good down low but needs choke on wide open?
I would be strapping an auxiliary tank and rubber hose on to verify fuel flow verses starvation.

kdreed88
04-01-2016, 09:58 PM
Well, we took another stab at it today, and got some more information. I'll outline what we did before we ended up getting to our findings.

* The last time we ran it, the pinion gear was stuck engaged to the diesel due to the teeth not meshing.
* Released the pinion gear by tapping on the 5 fingered clutch assembly (same one that has the pin for adjustment) until it vibrated it loose.
* Took off the pony gas tank and disassembled the filter assembly and ensured it was all clean
* Increased the length of the 1/4" rubber fuel line to help increase fuel flow and mitigate restrictions
* Checked the top assembly of the fuel bowl and ensured all gaps and components were set correctly.
* Adjusted the starter clutch so it would snap over center (hasn't been for a while and finally took the time to adjust it).
* Left the gas tank fuel cap resting on top of the tank instead of threading it on to potentially help increase fuel flow.

What happened today:
Got everything adjusted and in place and started the process of firing everything up. Did another quick retune of the low speed idle and got it running smoothly once it warmed up a little. Went to go high speed to check the flow, and it definitely responded better, needing maybe 50% choke to get to a purr. It helped it to ease the throttle up slowly and not jolt it all at once (I have noticed that when I get low speed going with no choke, if I rev up to high speed, it'll purr great for maybe 10 seconds, and then it starts sputtering some and needs some help from the choke to maintain and keep going). Once I figured it out, I went ahead and started the process of the going after the diesel.

During the process, I got the diesel spinning to get water into the pony, and then things started going downhill. The starting clutch stopped snapping over center, the pinion gear kept kicking out (this is an adjustment that I will need to do), and, yet again to my disappointment, the diesel and pinion assembly jammed up. Now, in this situation, I did not cause it by attempting to engage the pinion, but it appears that when the diesel ramped down, it got to a worn down portion of the ring gear and caused them to jam. I attempted unjam it, but its stuck on pretty good this time.

So, the thoughts on whats next:
Getting the two engines unlinked is a must obviously, and any suggestions are welcome. It is now apparent that the starting clutch also needs some work, as it doesn't want to maintain the snap over center, even after and adjustment. But, the big question is that ring gear and its damage. I used a endoscope to get in nice and close and look at was able to see in better detail the teeth on both the pinion and ring gear (I have attached it for reference).

The bigger question though, is what might be involved in order to get the ring gear repaired. Obviously it can't be done in place, so something has to come out. With my knowledge, that means the diesel block draws the short straw. Is the ring gear something that can be built up with welds and ground down to size, or should it just be replaced (we found one from cat for 330). The other thing we are considering, is if we have to pull the diesel, we may seriously consider converting it to direct start. I had read somewhere that someone had done direct start, while also keeping the pony motor in place. Is this something thats possible, and if so how? Or is it better to just ditch the pony and go that route. We really won't use the D4 during winter/summer months, but primary spring/fall, so we shouldn't have to crank anything too long to get going.

What are your guy's thoughts?

Thanks!
5894358944

rmyram
04-01-2016, 11:41 PM
you may get away with just replacing the pinion gear, if they are worn excessively a new pinion may engage the ring gear better and not cause the jamming issue.

drujinin
04-02-2016, 06:01 AM
I think OM has a Sticky on here with all the directions for direct start? Its a pretty hot topic as of late. If you do it, then in my opinion keep the Pony just in case you do ever need it. According to the photos you posted in my opinion a good deburring of all those chewed up teeth may be all you need.

ag-mike
04-02-2016, 06:31 AM
your in california, pull start it downhill.

Neil
04-02-2016, 10:20 AM
I replaced the ring gear on my flywheel. I got it from General Gear for 250 I think.
But I don't know that you need to replace it judging by that photo. Like Jeff wrote, worst you might need to do is replace the pinion gear - I would if there's less than 75% of any tooth missing because even new, they didn't engage all the way (my understanding). If you still have more than 75% on all teeth, then just grind them back to the original profile, which is filed to a very blunt point in the middle of the end of the tooth, and leaning back a bit from the root to the tip of the tooth by about say 1/16 - see photos. For this procedure, remove the pony pinion assembly which will then enable you to rehab the clutch and give it a general service. You'll need a new pony base gasket and the water gasket between the pony top cover and the diesel engine cylinder head, plus the gaskets for the pinion assembly and the big o-ring.

58946

58947

STEPHEN
04-02-2016, 10:41 AM
If you have to remove the engine, might as well throw a little money at it, only want to fix it once. Might find a nice used ring gear and pinion.

ag-mike
04-02-2016, 11:30 AM
Splitting the tractor and not knowing if the diesel runs:smash::tape2:,pressurize the diesel tank, bleed it and pull start it first.:usa2: No where in this thread does it read the the diesel runs good. Nuff said.

STEPHEN
04-02-2016, 07:46 PM
Splitting the tractor and not knowing if the diesel runs:smash::tape2:,pressurize the diesel tank, bleed it and pull start it first.:usa2: No where in this thread does it read the the diesel runs good. Nuff said.

Hold on Mike, ease up a little. The first post said it has been in the family since new and was operated by his Grandfather, and they want to fix it. I might be the only one that thinks this way, but if I had one like that 3 nickels or a wheel barrows worth of them wouldn't stop me from fixing it. If the engine isn't 100%, they can fix it easier with a pony system that works. Checking the oil pressure, fuel pressure etc. Towing it around trying not to get crossed up with a can of starting fluid just isn't my style I guess. Nuff said.:kiss:

ag-mike
04-03-2016, 08:42 AM
Hold on Mike, ease up a little. The first post said it has been in the family since new and was operated by his Grandfather, and they want to fix it. I might be the only one that thinks this way, but if I had one like that 3 nickels or a wheel barrows worth of them wouldn't stop me from fixing it. If the engine isn't 100%, they can fix it easier with a pony system that works. Checking the oil pressure, fuel pressure etc. Towing it around trying not to get crossed up with a can of starting fluid just isn't my style I guess. Nuff said.:kiss:

Fuel and oil pressure can be brought up towing it decompressed. its warm in ca. , I used torpedo heater and insulated construction blankets to warm up a d4 when it was 25*, it tow started without ether. I've tow started most i done without ether. Splitting a d4 not knowing whether it runs isn't my style, no guessing about it.:tape2: good luck to them.

Neil
04-03-2016, 09:15 AM
It'll run - it's an (old) Cat after all : ) But that ring gear doesn't look too bad to me. Compare the end of the ring gear teeth with my photo - they're a little munched but you can see that the ends haven't been knocked off. I'd guess (but a photo from the other angle would help) that the ends of the pinion teeth are the main problem.
I think the first step is to fix up the pinion and see how it goes because that's relatively easy. If it's still a problem, then pull the main engine. You don't really lose anything and potentially avoid pulling the main (at least for this specific issue).

STEPHEN
04-03-2016, 09:37 AM
If you have to remove the engine, might as well throw a little money at it, only want to fix it once. Might find a nice used ring gear and pinion.

Mike, my first sentence " if you HAVE to remove the engine". Hardly a prescription for the first thing to do, but if the engine was removed for any reason, then fitting good parts is a good idea (unless removed for scrapping). No need for anyone to over think or over react here.

STEPHEN
04-03-2016, 10:10 AM
It'll run - it's an (old) Cat after all : ) But that ring gear doesn't look too bad to me. Compare the end of the ring gear teeth with my photo - they're a little munched but you can see that the ends haven't been knocked off. I'd guess (but a photo from the other angle would help) that the ends of the pinion teeth are the main problem.
I think the first step is to fix up the pinion and see how it goes because that's relatively easy. If it's still a problem, then pull the main engine. You don't really lose anything and potentially avoid pulling the main (at least for this specific issue).

Neil, that sounds logical. Wouldn't hurt to replace the pinion shaft seal while in there, or check out the bearings if the.gears have been climbing.

kdreed88
04-03-2016, 10:47 PM
Before digging into the results:
@ag-mike: The condition for us to get the cat running was to do so without pull-starting it. It's my grandma's cat, and with it being in a very protected (and awkward) location, if we attempt to pull-start it and we fail, we have no easy way to put it back. We also know that the last time the diesel ran, it had no issues with it. The issue has always been in the steps leading up to the diesel (like the pony and pinion assemblies).

@neil: We had the ability to take a closer look at all of the ring gear teeth (see below to know more) and confirmed that while there are metal shavings all over it, they look really good and don't appear to be chewed up too bad, if at all.

Onto the results:
After some time away and thinking on it while repairing fences, we decided to go the route of removing the pinion assembly and looking at both the pinion assembly and starting clutches. After about 6 hours of work, the whole pinion assembly came right out (with some finesse) and we got a clear picture of our problem: a mangled pinion gear. We counted the teeth, and only 3 of them look good, the other 8 meanwhile have less than 25% of the material remaining (see picture below). So with that, I will begin the process of both cleaning and rebuilding the pinion assembly to get it ready to re-install.

Now, yesterday after we got home, we went to cats parts site to see how much a new pinion gear cost, and we all about had a heart attack. We found one for over $700! We laughed and said yeah right. We got to thinking, and recalled the parts cat we have has its on it still, but has been exposed to the elements for 20+ years. So we tackled the task of using extraordinary amounts of liquid wrench, cutoff wheels, and elbow grease. About 2 hours later, we managed to get the very rusty pinion assembly off, and shortly there after, the pinion gear. So, for 5 bucks and 2 hours, we now have a good pinion gear we can use. I'll be cleaning it up and using that to replace our mangled one.

And with that, thats the news. I'll be rebuilding the parts over the next two weeks and hopefully in 2 weeks we'll being re-assembly of everything.

Thanks again for all the support and insight, it has been extremely valuable.


59006

STEPHEN
04-04-2016, 06:14 AM
I don't know if you have ever tried Evapo-rust. I like it.

Neil
04-04-2016, 06:43 AM
Excellent news. Take a look at Sasquatch's pinion videos on youtube for a refresher if you need to. Things that I did with mine were new gaskets and the big o-ring, new bearings, ensure that the latche edges are square and flat on the retainer nut when engaged, and ensure that the latches are solidly on the retainer nut rather than hanging off the side of the flat used for tightening it. Add a shim if you need to have it turned somewhat.
Looking forward to the first start video! : )

ag-mike
04-04-2016, 06:50 AM
Before digging into the results:
@ag-mike: The condition for us to get the cat running was to do so without pull-starting it. It's my grandma's cat, and with it being in a very protected (and awkward) location, if we attempt to pull-start it and we fail, we have no easy way to put it back. We also know that the last time the diesel ran, it had no issues with it. The issue has always been in the steps leading up to the diesel (like the pony and pinion assemblies).

@neil: We had the ability to take a closer look at all of the ring gear teeth (see below to know more) and confirmed that while there are metal shavings all over it, they look really good and don't appear to be chewed up too bad, if at all.

Onto the results:
After some time away and thinking on it while repairing fences, we decided to go the route of removing the pinion assembly and looking at both the pinion assembly and starting clutches. After about 6 hours of work, the whole pinion assembly came right out (with some finesse) and we got a clear picture of our problem: a mangled pinion gear. We counted the teeth, and only 3 of them look good, the other 8 meanwhile have less than 25% of the material remaining (see picture below). So with that, I will begin the process of both cleaning and rebuilding the pinion assembly to get it ready to re-install.

Now, yesterday after we got home, we went to cats parts site to see how much a new pinion gear cost, and we all about had a heart attack. We found one for over $700! We laughed and said yeah right. We got to thinking, and recalled the parts cat we have has its on it still, but has been exposed to the elements for 20+ years. So we tackled the task of using extraordinary amounts of liquid wrench, cutoff wheels, and elbow grease. About 2 hours later, we managed to get the very rusty pinion assembly off, and shortly there after, the pinion gear. So, for 5 bucks and 2 hours, we now have a good pinion gear we can use. I'll be cleaning it up and using that to replace our mangled one.

And with that, thats the news. I'll be rebuilding the parts over the next two weeks and hopefully in 2 weeks we'll being re-assembly of everything.

Thanks again for all the support and insight, it has been extremely valuable.


59006


yea for parts cats! good luck with ur project. hope to see a vid of its conventional start up.

kdreed88
04-07-2016, 07:19 PM
Okay, So I'm at a loss at the moment. I've got the Pinion gear off and ready for the new one to be installed, but I want to continue disassembly so I can inspect the clutches and make sure they're good. Going from right to left (right being where the pinion gear is), just after it towards the left is the T-259 nut with a lock ring to hold it in place. I've got the tabs of the lock ring separated from the nut, but I cannot get the nut to loosen. I've used just about every tool I have at my disposal (had to buy a few more to get the pinion gear free) and not sure what I'm missing. I've tried loosening it by left and right hand threads, but it is on tight. Any thoughts?

Thanks all!

ag-mike
04-07-2016, 07:26 PM
i think toby has a video taking 1 apart. did u try youtube?

try this 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKI3wTZU4AA&nohtml5=False

Old Magnet
04-07-2016, 07:36 PM
If the pinion is that bad what's the flywheel ring gear looking like?

Sasquatch
04-07-2016, 08:19 PM
I custom ground an old spanner type wrench to fit the slots in that nut, most times I put the bronze soft jaws on my bench vise and clamp onto the splined end of the main shaft where the pinion gear slides to steady things so I can apply enough force to the nut. If you do clamp between those splines, just take the appropriate measures to ensure you don't end up damaging them. That nut is not left hand thread.

Neil
04-08-2016, 06:14 AM
I put the spline in the vise with a rag around it and used a punch to tap it loose - really need to get some c-spanners....

Jim Williamson
04-08-2016, 02:12 PM
Check the sediment bowl gasket some times it will swell and cover fuel exit to carburetor i have had this happen on my old D4

kdreed88
04-12-2016, 10:55 PM
@Sasquatch: Ifinally got all the parts off of the shaft and got to the clutch discs and have a question. On your video, you demonstrated putting a bevel on the brass discs to make them work better. How do you determine if they should be replaced? When taking outs apart, they were loose, but stuck together by the oil. However, the brass discs have a raised edge all the way around them from the steel ones. It's not a lot, but definitely noticeable (maybe 1/16" or 1/32" max)

Thanks!

Sasquatch
04-13-2016, 07:51 AM
The bronze discs should all be of uniform thickness to be considered good condition, it sounds like yours are worn and need to be replaced. A quick measurement of the thickness of the external tabs that are beyond the contact surface of the steel discs will be an indicator of how thick the entire bronze disc should be.

kdreed88
04-23-2016, 10:40 PM
Well, before digging into day, lets step back a few days and I'll tell of today's activities.

A few days ago I finally got all of the parts, including those that were unavailable from CAT, and got the pinion assembly completely rebuilt and tuned up. We made the decision to replace all of the clutch discs with new ones while we were there since ours were pretty well worn down, and figured since we were in this far, do it right so we don't have to pull it out again. Once it was all back together, cleaned up, and ready to install, all we had to do was install it. Which leads us to today....

Got to the CAT early this morning, and spent a good 3-4 hours reassembling everything that had been taken off: Diesel Governor, Pinion Assembly, Pony Motor, Fuel tanks, intake lines, and air cleaners. Surprisingly the pony went on without too much fuss once it was cleaned up some. So once it was all together, we started trying everything out and getting things running. The pony started right up, and immediately we got to spinning the diesel. Both my dad and I recalled a little thunking sound previously, and that was gone and everything was smooth this time. Were pretty confident this was the pinion gear being so worn down. With the diesel spinning without compression, we spent some time ensuring the pony was tuned up. It still needs work to be honest as it requires a decent amount of choke to run at high speed and it still wants to stall with the compression lever on.

After about 20-30 minutes of that, we finally started going after the biggest desire: getting the diesel to run. During the the last 10 minutes of running the pony without compression, we had the diesel line cracked so we could watch for any signs of smoke coming out of the exhaust, which we did. At this point, we committed ourselves to going for it. We started working on getting compression into the diesel and firing it up. The smoke, to our happiness, would turn from white to grey, and occasionally put out a black smoke ring. After a few minutes of trying to get it to really start, the block warmed up significantly, the diesel injectors all got primed, we gave it more fuel, and after a few more minutes of going between 1/2 compression and full compression, the diesel sputtered.... coughed....choked... and belched a wave of smoke....during which the pony speed increased and leveled out, and at that point, we had working engine!!!!

Now, thats not all that happened. It was early enough in the day, so we cleared all of the parts and tools, so we decided to go ahead and move it. Again, to our happiness, it moved with hardly any fuss. We drove it around a little bit ensured everything was working. No suck steering clutches or brakes, transmission is in good working order, and the dozer blade works too (pistons need to be rebuilt, but thats for another day).

So with that, I would like to say thank you to everyone who has helped out in figuring what was going on! It was a tremendous success, and I will be posting a video on youtube and linking it here in the next few days (We just got home a little bit ago).

Again, thanks to everyone, you all have been a great help!!

mrsmackpaul
04-24-2016, 03:20 AM
Mate well done to all involved it is a good feeling to get a result after a lot of stuffing around

Paul

Neil
04-24-2016, 05:31 AM
Excellent work kreed! Very satisfying : )

STEPHEN
04-24-2016, 07:00 AM
Hey guys, I think we just roped in another Cat nut! Mission accomplished!

mog5858
04-24-2016, 07:46 AM
glad to hear you got her running. there is no better feeling then when she come to life for the fist time. will be waiting to see the video keep up the good work.

ag-mike
04-24-2016, 08:37 AM
glad to hear you got her running. there is no better feeling then when she come to life for the fist time. will be waiting to see the video keep up the good work.

this, + ur 1 of the few newbies who actually gets 1 running after its been sitting idle for years. good luck with ur project.

juiceman
04-24-2016, 11:10 AM
Congrats on getting the old girl fired up and running! Your post has been a nail biter; you were determined to make it run; some folks would have gotten too frustrated and abandoned ship. Glad to hear the great news, now you can have more fun driving it. Can't wait to see the video.:lever::lever::lever:

old-iron-habit
04-24-2016, 06:09 PM
Great job guys. Always cool to hear when perseverance and doing the right thing pays off. I await the video.

kdreed88
05-09-2016, 08:50 PM
Sorry for the delay all, its been a crazy few weeks. I finally got the video up showing the old girl starting and moving. Hope everyone enjoys it!

https://youtu.be/GaKNej7moa0

Neil
05-09-2016, 09:07 PM
That's a great video and the enthusiasm is what this hobby is all about. Really good to see it run. Looks like it has some type of hitch arrangement - can you get some close-up of what that is. Would it be a 3-pt?

Sasquatch
05-09-2016, 09:13 PM
Thanks for the video and congratulations on sticking with it, you guys did a lot of work to get it running again. I know the feeling you guys had when she finally roared to life, been there myself. Good job!

kdreed88
05-09-2016, 09:17 PM
That's a great video and the enthusiasm is what this hobby is all about. Really good to see it run. Looks like it has some type of hitch arrangement - can you get some close-up of what that is. Would it be a 3-pt?

Yeah, it looks like its got a 3-pt on it. 59927

mrsmackpaul
05-09-2016, 09:35 PM
fantastic stuff great see you got it all going and I can understand how happy the two of you were well done and I bet you never forget that moment for the rest of your lives
59929

Paul

Paso Bob
05-09-2016, 10:16 PM
Your hard work and determination paid off. Now you can go out and put some polish on the blade!

7upuller
05-09-2016, 10:55 PM
Great job getting it going. I smiled for you guys with all the cheers and emotions going from your victory. Great Stuff!!! The blade is in great shape. Just needs some polish from dozing!!!

ag-mike
05-10-2016, 04:45 AM
u didn't check the oil....... but still nice, real nice.:usa2:

Bruce P
05-10-2016, 06:12 AM
Great job guys! Nothing like that first startup.

Thanks for sharing

Bruce P

Crawler Dollars
05-10-2016, 08:17 AM
Congrats on a job well done! You and your Dad's enthusiasm is well deserved, she sounds great!:music:

dpendzic
05-10-2016, 09:28 AM
Very very nice!! :bounce::bounce: Bet your Grandma was really happy too!!

Hillbillybjopkr
05-11-2016, 04:13 PM
CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!......there is no better feeling....I have a few vids on youtube of my first fire up...and starting......as for the pony....carburetor rebuild.....mine did the same thing...full choke...and stall when I applied compression.....once I rebuilt the carb.....which included a 24h soak in Berrymans carb dip.....runs like a Champ......next time I get down to visit the ranch would like the see your CAT lol

Neil
05-11-2016, 08:18 PM
Next step - get the blade working : )

old-iron-habit
05-12-2016, 08:41 AM
Great job! And maybe it has been said uppost buy when you run the pony, shut the gas off and let it run the carb dry to shut it off, instead of the kill button. The carb will leak gas into the pony engine oil when it shakes about and it doesn't take much to dilute that quart or so of pony oil. You want ot take care of the bearings.

mikekent1
05-13-2016, 12:57 PM
make sure you check the level injection pump oil reservoir next the hour meter