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View Full Version : Advice requested - broke chunk off pony flywheel



Neil
02-18-2017, 08:50 PM
I broke a 2x1 tapering to nothing chunk out of the D2's pony flywheel, adjacent to the rope slot. Basically started at the root of the slot and then in a couple of inches tapered up to the rim. It's cast something. Couple of questions:
- when I go see the welder, what should I ask him to weld it with?
- will it likely hold up to the 3000rpm rated speed?

restore49
02-18-2017, 09:04 PM
Material Cast Iron - brazing best if you can find someone competent - Ni cad welding rod - pre and post heat. Not sure about balance? Best to remove. Bob

STEPHEN
02-18-2017, 09:18 PM
There should be a raft of those flywheels about from all the ponys thrown out and converted. I might even have one, how many belt grooves do you need? Two or one (early flywheel without electric start)

jmvmopar
02-18-2017, 09:22 PM
I wouldn't weld it. Sounds like an accident waiting to happen. I would cut out a chunk on the opposite side of the flywheel to balance it. Or better yet find a good flywheel.

oldbeek
02-18-2017, 10:26 PM
i would ask for one in for sale or WTB. Probably one out there for less than the welders time. I think i have one. Look up the part # and ask. Bet GEMDOZER has one.

janmeermans
02-19-2017, 10:13 AM
Neil,

Leave some room in your suitcase when you go home from Santa Margarita. Oilslick, GP, Darron or somebody out here has some laying around some place. Now the baggage handlers may frown on that but there are other options (like talking nicely to Tom Stanesa about hauling it back as far as Peoria or OIH?)

JanM

dpendzic
02-19-2017, 11:56 AM
So Neil---how did you do that???? puller on the flange,hammering on it?????
we need to know so we don't do it!!!!

juiceman
02-19-2017, 12:00 PM
Neil,

Leave some room in your suitcase when you go home from Santa Margarita. Oilslick, GP, Darron or somebody out here has some laying around some place. Now the baggage handlers may frown on that but there are other options (like talking nicely to Tom Stanesa about hauling it back as far as Peoria or OIH?)

JanM

Yes, Neil if you can wait until SM, I will gladly donate one to your cause. I am waiting for dry weather to retrieve some of my "parts machines". Heck, if you want I might toss in the complete motor if you need one. JM

gemdozer
02-19-2017, 01:23 PM
I check tomorrow but should still have one flywheel on racking

Neil
02-19-2017, 02:11 PM
Thanks all gents, offers much appreciated! Turns out I had one (two groove electric start) in the sandblast pile so it looks like I'm good to go. Hate making stupid errors like that though, urghh! I'm glad I asked about repairing it as I had misgivings about whether the brazing would hold up.

Ray54
02-19-2017, 05:46 PM
Brazing will hold up,one 9u came that way to me. I have no idea what kind of knowledge the person that did it had. It is not the prettiest brazing but has lasted.

Neil
02-19-2017, 08:26 PM
Thanks Ray, I'll give it a shot but I have another that I can use so I'll put the fixed one into the spare pile. Got the pony fully stripped to take to the machine shop tomorrow, get the mains mic'd and then select the size to trim them down to. Currently have 025 radial and 010 axial, and the flywheel was loose. Surprised it didn't grenade. Bores and rings look pristine so that's good. Noticed that the idle plug in the carb was not dead center bottom so will straighten that out tomorrow for that low, low, idle.

Paso Bob
02-19-2017, 09:40 PM
I'm not so sure I would be welding it up. If a small piece let go at 3,000 RPM's, it would be flying shrapnel and put a hole right through you. I'm glad you found a solid replacement.

restore49
02-20-2017, 07:45 AM
2 cents -PROPERLY brazed or silver soldered will not let go.

Neil
02-20-2017, 11:04 AM
Bob, yeah I'm still on the fence - I wouldn't want anyone to take that chunk to the face. Partly interested in seeing what could be done (I realize it's not cost-effective but I'm more interested in the process).

Restore49, when you wrote "properly" brazed, what does that entail (if there's brazing to be done, it'll be done by some guy heading into his 70s...):
- for example, what percentage of the width should be vee'd
- what grade of brazing material to use (this thing looks like cast iron but could be cast steel?)
- what pre-heat e.g. 350 and what is the cool-down spec e.g. degrees per hour
- any post cool-down processing?

Tracklayer
02-20-2017, 12:15 PM
Why did the piece break out in the first place? Had there been some sort of damage that finally developed into a full breakout?

restore49
02-20-2017, 12:39 PM
A picture would help - and yes someone with experience would know exactly what to do. Old school would be to reuse a part if another not readily available. Had a D2 oil pan that was cracked to dog shit from the spring beating it up. Found a local man (72) who brazed it together and lasted for years with less than gentle use.

dpendzic
02-20-2017, 01:57 PM
so neil---how did you do that???? Puller on the flange,hammering on it?????
We need to know so we don't do it!!!!

neil???????

Neil
02-22-2017, 09:50 AM
Dan, I wish it was something not embarrassing but it is. In order to negotiate the shop crane around my two-car garage, I only had one leg down. Was in the process of lowering the other leg when it tipped. Stupid things I should not have done:
- had the pony more than a couple of inches off the floor in any case
- attempted to lower the leg without first lowering the pony to the ground

I self-flagellated over that for quite some time. The only good thing to come out of it is that it reminded me that I make stupid choices sometimes - arrgghhh!

Anyway, here are the pictures (some might write evidence....) including the chunk I broke off. Not a lot of room to move in there but it is heated, not that we need it today - can you believe it - it's 65 degrees middle of Feb:

65716

65717

65718

I sent my pony crank into the shop to be turned down. It was still on std sizing so rather than go to Cat's next undersize which is 020, I'm having the guy turn it 010 and make up some oilite bearings, same as I did for my 3J's pony which is at 040. I'm surprised that the crank is not that worn - it's either a replacement (engine shows no evidence of damage and in fact the bores are still at std sizing) or they really looked after it (unlike the rest of the tractor).
So the upshot is that I'm also going to have him lap the replacement flywheel to the crank so it's a good fit. Should have everything back this week and I have the gaskets so will reassemble on the weekend if everything goes to plan. Meantime I have the pony electric start adjuster to de-seize. I bought bigger oxy-acetylene cylinders with that in mind : )

Neil
02-22-2017, 10:58 AM
Unpacked some parts this morning and noted that the D2/4 pony cylinder head gasket is now a fibre-only piece and is no longer copper-jacketed. I'll deploy those when I reassemble and then check them in a few runs time to see how they're holding up. The material looks like that grey exhaust manifold gasket material used on other engines occasionally.

Mike Meyer
02-22-2017, 01:01 PM
Unpacked some parts this morning and noted that the D2/4 pony cylinder head gasket is now a fibre-only piece and is no longer copper-jacketed. I'll deploy those when I reassemble and then check them in a few runs time to see how they're holding up. The material looks like that grey exhaust manifold gasket material used on other engines occasionally.

Hi Neil, don't beat yourself up about breaking a piece out of the flywheel, you are not the only one who is trying to save old Cats without all the special tools and beautiful workshops that make life easier and sometimes things just don't go to plan, provided no one get's hurt it usually provides a good lesson on how not to do it next time, interestingly I have a pilot motor pulley that was broken just like yours and someone had previously brazed it back together.

You mention making some .040" oilite bearings and I wondered how much it cost to get them made as I have a pilot motor crank here ground .040" too, I may never use it but if bearings were available it might come in handy for someone.

The numerous (8 at least) pilot motor head gaskets I've bought from Cat the past couple of years are a steel type, I've never seen the fibre type you mention.
Regards
Mike

dpendzic
02-22-2017, 03:17 PM
Neil--don't worry about the broken flywheel---with the D82U you can just tow start the D2!!! :laugh::laugh:

Neil
02-22-2017, 06:21 PM
(cough ahem) 36A....

Mike, oilite bearings cost maybe 50-100 to turn. Just came down to how long he spent turning them. For the current set, he's looking for some stock that's close on the OD or even bang on. Just got quotations back from Cat - std, 020, and 030 ranged from about 60 to 100 so the oilites are right in the range. Can make them out of aluminum too I believe.

Mike Meyer
02-22-2017, 10:25 PM
(cough ahem) 36A....

Mike, oilite bearings cost maybe 50-100 to turn. Just came down to how long he spent turning them. For the current set, he's looking for some stock that's close on the OD or even bang on. Just got quotations back from Cat - std, 020, and 030 ranged from about 60 to 100 so the oilites are right in the range. Can make them out of aluminum too I believe.

Hi Neil, thanks for that info, I was told by a Metallurgist from Toyota here in Oz who analyzed the Cat pilot motor bearings a few years ago that Toyota pistons were almost identical and he suggested simply melting some old Toyota pistons down to create the stock, apparently the Cat aluminium alloy used a higher % of tin for hardness, like 2% or 3% tin.
Mike

Neil
02-23-2017, 08:48 AM
Hi Mike,
I guess you could do that but I don't think it would be worth it. Oilite is ideal as bearing material and the reality is that your pony's not going to put a whole lot of hours on, plus I know you're on top of changing oil regularly so I'd go with the easy option. There'll be a shop in Melbourne or even closer that will have worked with it and it comes as standard stock sizes that they can choose from. Your other option is straight aluminum stock for bearings. Either way, those materials are softer than the crank journals and as long as you're on top of the oil, I'll doubt you'll have any issues (understanding that I'm not an engineer with data at my fingertips : )
McMaster stock some sizes, Enco, Amazon, NSK, others per a goggle search.

timbo1946
02-23-2017, 09:12 AM
I have ordered from the link below before. Not cheep, but does have some useful information when looking for different grades of metal, shapes and sizes.

You want to be careful when machining oil impregnated bronze, especially if the bearing surface doesn't have an oil source after machine. If you rely only on the oil impregnation, the machining process will close up the pores, and no lubrication will take place. In the case of the pony motor the would be additional lubrication so it would be acceptable.

I added a link to a machine design article for Al bearing material

www.onlinemetals.com/

http://machinedesign.com/basics-design/aluminum-alloy-bearings

Tim

ronm
02-23-2017, 09:41 AM
http://www.acmoc.org/bb/showthread.php?17425-D2-pony-crankshaft-thrust-bearings

http://www.acmoc.org/bb/showthread.php?21325-Al-alloy-for-pony-motor-bearings

Neil
02-23-2017, 02:23 PM
Seeing as I'm in the mode of breaking things, I tried to undo the gasoline line to that steel block that the remote valve screws into by the pinion controls. Thing just shattered. How could I get the remnants out? I've thought of sacrificing the block but right now, it seems like the line is still held tightly in there so I might be able to deploy it as is, but it's a bit hoary and I'd really like to fix it.

65736

restore49
02-23-2017, 02:34 PM
Heating and cooling cycles 3 (light glow dunk in cold water) a light rapping each time with hammer and anvil then maybe external snap ring pliers.

STEPHEN
02-23-2017, 06:35 PM
Neil, I think the end piece on that line is just soldered, or silver brazed to the line. If all else fails you could get it hot enough to separate the line from the end fitting, then since the line is out of the way, cut out the brass part with an annular cutter. A friendly lathe hand could turn a cutter from steel and sharpen it to cut left-hand.

oldbeek
02-23-2017, 08:36 PM
Dan, I wish it was something not embarrassing but it is. In order to negotiate the shop crane around my two-car garage, I only had one leg down. Was in the process of lowering the other leg when it tipped. Stupid things I should not have done:
- had the pony more than a couple of inches off the floor in any case
- attempted to lower the leg without first lowering the pony to the ground

I self-flagellated over that for quite some time. The only good thing to come out of it is that it reminded me that I make stupid choices sometimes - arrgghhh!

Anyway, here are the pictures (some might write evidence....) including the chunk I broke off. Not a lot of room to move in there but it is heated, not that we need it today - can you believe it - it's 65 degrees middle of Feb:

65716

65717

65718

I sent my pony crank into the shop to be turned down. It was still on std sizing so rather than go to Cat's next undersize which is 020, I'm having the guy turn it 010 and make up some oilite bearings, same as I did for my 3J's pony which is at 040. I'm surprised that the crank is not that worn - it's either a replacement (engine shows no evidence of damage and in fact the bores are still at std sizing) or they really looked after it (unlike the rest of the tractor).
So the upshot is that I'm also going to have him lap the replacement flywheel to the crank so it's a good fit. Should have everything back this week and I have the gaskets so will reassemble on the weekend if everything goes to plan. Meantime I have the pony electric start adjuster to de-seize. I bought bigger oxy-acetylene cylinders with that in mind : )

Had you posted pics in first post, I would have said to braze it. If you are restoring CATS you need to learn to braze. it is easy on stuff that thin. good flux is the secret. Google how to do it and practice.

Garlic Pete
03-14-2017, 12:19 PM
Sorry I'm late, but I wanted to post this proof that oldbeek is right, brazing will work. Here's a D2 flywheel from Garlic Mom's backyard (originally from the Pomeroy estate and looking for a new owner). This one suffered the same fate as yours, obviously a long time ago, and the brazed repair seems to have survived quite well.

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p363/pbloom3/20170309_181017_zpsef7yf8ie.jpg (http://s345.photobucket.com/user/pbloom3/media/20170309_181017_zpsef7yf8ie.jpg.html)

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p363/pbloom3/20170309_181021_zps9zhg001p.jpg (http://s345.photobucket.com/user/pbloom3/media/20170309_181021_zps9zhg001p.jpg.html)

Pete.

Old Magnet
03-14-2017, 02:54 PM
Usually the ones broken at the knot slot are due to jamming something against it to keep the flywheel from turning while tightening the crankshaft/flywheel nut.

dpendzic
03-14-2017, 03:26 PM
would the best way is to devise a plate bolted in to the pull bolt holes???

Old Magnet
03-14-2017, 04:45 PM
It's a little trickier than that to support the weight while preventing rotation. Making up something similar to attach at the puller thread holes would also work. On this version one side does the D4. Flip it over for the D2.

Neil
03-14-2017, 04:58 PM
Thanks GP, I still need to find that old geezer to do it because even though I should learn to braze, I wouldn't warrant my work in this situation : )

mog5858
03-15-2017, 07:29 PM
well i guess that 2 things you got to lean how to do. lol send up too me they pay me to do that stuff at work all the time. i am the mater get her out guy to a lot for the oil filed down hole tools. the more you do the better you get. one of the things is best to do in the morning when drinking coffee. what every you do don't be in a rush as then it will never work out. lol when i got my mojo going i can make over 200.00 per h taking screws and such out.

cojhl2
03-15-2017, 09:21 PM
I check tomorrow but should still have one flywheel on racking

Gemdozer would you have aan electric start flywheel?

Thankyou for looking. Oops, for a 5J

old-iron-habit
03-15-2017, 09:24 PM
It's a little trickier than that to support the weight while preventing rotation. Making up something similar to attach at the puller thread holes would also work. On this version one side does the D4. Flip it over for the D2.

Not to pull the thread of course but the picture with the pedals in it is a great example that shows that the right side clutch and brake was used way more than the left.

oldbeek
03-15-2017, 11:05 PM
It's a little trickier than that to support the weight while preventing rotation. Making up something similar to attach at the puller thread holes would also work. On this version one side does the D4. Flip it over for the D2. That is a nice looking tool. I never get around to finishing my shop tools with paint and all. Get it made, do the job and store it away. Move on.

Gil Favor
03-16-2017, 05:14 PM
I wouldn't weld it. Sounds like an accident waiting to happen. I would cut out a chunk on the opposite side of the flywheel to balance it. Or better yet find a good flywheel.

Is it beyond the realm of possibility to use either epoxy or Gorilla glue to put the chunk back into the flywheel? Or, has it been tried and failed?

gemdozer
03-16-2017, 05:32 PM
Gemdozer would you have aan electric start flywheel?

Thankyou for looking. Oops, for a 5J

Yes am still have a good flywell with 2 groove on for governor belt and one for startor sheiil belt poly

cojhl2
03-17-2017, 07:31 PM
Could you PM a price inc shipping Gem and how you can receive payment. Do you use paypal? My shipping addr will be to WA State.