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View Full Version : Question about ACMOC Model 22 prices



Jim Sixty
01-02-2007, 09:23 PM
I don't remember the price when I ordered mine at the ACMOC tent in Iowa in 2005. (and got the one with the backwards tracks) The last I saw advertized the the magazine were $60 for members and $70 for non members plus shipping. So why are they showing up on ebay for under $50? Can these be bought discount in quanities?
Jim

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&from=R10&satitle=Caterpillar+twenty+two&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=66962&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&coaction=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search

Caterpillarman
01-02-2007, 09:40 PM
Hello, I have a friend that works for the local Cat dealer, and he bought a 22 model from them. I asked him what he paid for it, and he told me with his employee discount it was $45.00. I looked in the acmoc and I could buy it from them for $60.00. So I told my friend to buy me one, and I would pay him for it. When I got it, the box had a price tag on it for $47.50. I guess the acmoc has to make their profit to support the club! Caterpillarman

gwhdiesel75
01-02-2007, 10:35 PM
Well, I dont' know where to start. Yes, you can buy them elsewhere for less money than through ACMOC.

We no longer advertise the Twenty-Two model as a product of ACMOC since people can buy them elsewhere - through Norscot or elsewhere - cheaper, which has turned out to be an embarrasment to the board.

The purpose of the club selling models is to raise money for the club. So the fundamental is that we make a profit to support expenses like most of the employee's wages. So we don't regard the notion of a "profit" as offensive. That's the purpose of selling models.

As for the club's contract with Norscot (the manufacturer of the Twenty-Two model), we make 6% on the sales price. I think that is the price that Norscot sells the model to someone else, either a whole-saler or an individual.

We were surprised at how the prices were so discounted, but we have learned from the experience.

So we've learned from our mistakes, and we hope you will forgive the board of directors and model committee members for our lack of experience in the model business. We all learn the hard way. We wanted to earn money for the club so the dues would not increase to meet the financial needs of the club. Thanks for your understanding, and maybe we can do better the next time!

GWH

Willie
01-03-2007, 01:26 AM
Well slap me for saying so but I TOLD YOU SO!! a year ago about the sleavey contract. our earlies models were very detailed models for collectors made by SpecCast and Firstgear making a limited supply sold only tru ACMOC. Norscott makes toys for kids the junk you buy at the dealerships for you kids to play with. They can make all they want and sell to whoever they want at what ever price they want.
As for the 22 model it stared out wrong color then showed up with tracs on backwards and if you look the sprockets are on backward the dash dosnt match same era of the carb&aircleaner if you tried you couldnt make that machine outa real 22 parts.Its just a hermophidite kids toy being called a 22 collectable.

Art From De Leon
01-03-2007, 06:57 AM
First off, I let my membership expire, and am still undecided whether to renew.
I do not have a problem with anyone making a profit on what they are selling, but the price should reflect the quality. The toys are as close as I will ever come to owning a Caterpillar, so I spend my money on highly detailed models, or custom made, one of a kind toys. As gwh75diesel says, they are produced to raise money for the club, and as far as the price, the D9D sold out, even though it was sold for about $100 more than the First Gear HD-21 and disk. Maybe there is something wrong with that, but we got something that was not available, that was several hundred dollars cheaper than a Gilson Reicke (?) D-4, 40 scraper, or D-6, and if ACMOC does not flood the market, they should appreciate in value. If they learned from dealing with Norscott, and if they issue only one highly detailed, unusual model a year, then more power to them. I would prefer only one issue per year, unlike Ertl and its Precision or Key series farm equipment where the models come fast and furious, sometimes with little difference between the models (the JD 5010 and 5020's come to mind), and the financial inability to purchase them all.

gwhdiesel75
01-03-2007, 07:30 AM
Art, our purpose is to raise money by selling models. As Willie says, the 22 was not a "collector quality" model. We will continue selling less than "collector quality" models in cooperation with Norscot, because the money is good. We will also continue to sell collector quality models, probably manufactured by the likes of First Gear. But remember, the purpose of selling any models is to raise money for the club. GWH

Willie
01-03-2007, 09:55 AM
Art; I would also like to add, the norsott mess was inherited by the current BoD in yrs past before our past dictator ( Bill ) the proto types were brought the shows for imput from all about its correctness. In Brooks OR. few yrs back they brought the D2 dozer prototype and a 10yr old could tell the blade was way too far out in front by the time it went into prduction it had 1000s of collectors look it over and was deliv. as perfect model. All that needs to be done is some house cleaning with current toy committee and rid it with those who are in bed with norscott or in it for the greed of selling toys for their own gain.
Few yrs back Ed Akin, Larry Masddam, Allen Smith, Ron Meader all talked to me personally about the norscott contract being BAD for the club and in Brooks 2006 Kent Bates told me the experiance was not as plesant as they thought it would be. after all that said we still ended up with the hermorphidite 22.
I beleave we need to table the toys for awhile and put the kinda money we put up front for them, itno repoduction parts that can benefitt more members and thier restoration projects like Gauges, switches & mag parts ect. that would help far more members then the models

CatKen
01-03-2007, 12:49 PM
Selling the cheap models is almost a must to raise money. One must remember-u don't have to buy them. I believe we should also have a very nice Spec-Cast each year and make it for members only. I don't believe the extra cost would effect the maketing becasue of the price it would cost. And why don't they make a DW21 or 631B or something like that? Just a penny worth of thought. Ken

CatKen
01-03-2007, 03:05 PM
First Gear seems to have the best detailed toy. No one has made a rubber tired scraper or Caterpillar pull scraper. Just wanted to add that for the board members to consider. Tks Ken

chugwater crawlers
01-03-2007, 03:49 PM
This is an interesting topic. I collect some of the real Cats and I collect some of the models. I agree the twenty two did not turn out as well as it could have. However, if it makes money for the club that is good. I agree with Willie. I would like to see some reproduction parts ( like an oil gauge or an Eisemann switch) for my full size Cats.

I think everyone would agree the D9D is an outstanding model. The Brooks version sold out and I am glad I got one. I don't think the regular version is sold out, is it?

Maybe we should look at doing some 1/50 scale classic pieces that appeal to the 1/50 construction collector ( bigger market ) and use a percentage of the profits to subsidize some reproduction parts for club members.

In reference to the scraper concept, Toy Trucker is producing an old Allis Chalmers scraper in 1/50 scale as the 2007 show model. Perhaps we could see how that sells and look at a classic Cat scraper or classic Cat whatever as a limited run with the profits funding a parts reproduction experiment.

On another note, a lot of people in the club have helped me out and I really appreciate it. Just my thoughts. Happy New Year everyone!

B4D2
01-03-2007, 06:15 PM
For once, I do agree with Willie about the club producing some items that will benefit it's members. How about a reproduction set of track wear gauges? Seems pretty easy to stamp out and could be lettered with the ACMOC logo for added advertising mileage. I also think that a limited production model is needed, available to paid members. I am still honked off about the Brooks D9 model not being available to the rest of the ACMOC members. Seems kinda like the select few were able to get one. Not everyone can jump on a plane and fly to a show for the chance to buy a model. GWH, let me know if I can help.

gwhdiesel75
01-03-2007, 08:20 PM
Actually Bruce, I'm going to send a copy of this thread to the board members, perhaps in a day or two after it has further developed.

With reference to the D9D model logging Cat at Brooks, I think maybe there is some misunderstanding about the matter. The people at Brooks who run the Antique Caterpillar Machinery Museum approached ACMOC about selling the museum 200 (I think it was) D9D models, so that the museum could make some money. So ACMOC sold the models to the museum, and the museum decided that it would have the manufacturer modify the models by putting logging equipment on them. It was ACMM that decided on the sales strategy. They decided that they would not ship any of them.

While I thought the models were beautiful, I did not buy one. I did fly there, but was frankly too darn busy with ACMOC business to have the time to pay attention to the models or any other merchandise, for that matter.

So, if people don't like how the D9D was handled at Brooks, perhaps it would be better to discuss the matter with the leaders of ACMM.

GWH

Willie
01-03-2007, 08:51 PM
ACMOC is only aloud to make 1/16 scale models of pre 1960 machines and then only by specail permission from Cat Corp.
As GWH said the Brookd models were absolutly no part of ACMOC they were purchased from ACMOC by ACM just like you and I still can buy them but paid to have the winch designed and mounted for the sole purpose on luring people to the international show in Brooks. No shipping, no pre sales and limited to 4 per person. with a waiting line with first come first serve basis. It turned out perfect without a hitch and made good money for ACM just as it was supose to do. I guess you just had to be there.
As for making money from cheap models the jury is still out because I have seen no profit lose on the 22 model yet and what prfit if any will be slim I'm sure maybe GWH can inlighten us as to how much the 22 has made in PROFIT so far.It also take another tractor from our pool so it can't be made by Spec Cast or Firstgear where we can make good money from it.
I am at present and have been for awhile trying to get permission from Syphlon to allow us to reproduce the bezel gauges , if I get the permission I plan on bringing the package to BoD and give them a few months to figure out if they think they want to tackle it and If they do and I am happy with how and who they want to carry it out then we go from there, if not I'll have them made for my profit because I have no desire to turn it over to a Committee that dosnt have time to do it correct or dont care cause they don't get paid to do it as happend to the 22 model

doc_dozer
01-04-2007, 04:05 AM
I agree that both a set of track gauges and repro bezel gauges would be a very good idea. It seems to me that this is the kind of thing that the club should live for.

side-seat
01-04-2007, 06:13 AM
Willie, I talked to a US Gauge Ametec saleperson or engineer 12-13yrs ago about gauges and he said gauges could be made but the cost of the tooling for the needles was in the $10.000's. I thought that was abit high so gave up on the persuit. Since the market was so small! I can't remember if the beveled glass was a problem or not. I think he did say one time someone wanted an old gauge rebuilt and one of the old time retired employees took on the task. I don't know if it was a Cat gauge or not.

alan627b
01-04-2007, 12:59 PM
I think part of the problem with Norscot (and probably Cat too) is that they are more interested in making models that support the current product line of their clients. There was a line of "classic" models announced ealy in 2006 or late 2005, including a 1/50 977E and a 1/87 #12 blade, both of which are supposed to be out by now and to the best of my knowledge, neither one is.
Norscot's overly optimistic new model release dates are a frequent subject on some of the modelling bulletin boards I frequent. As are the quality of thier replicas. I think First Gear ought to get the nod, as for the price you pay, they beat Norscot for detail and quality all to h*ll. My new 1/50 IH 175C loader proves that to me. The D9D did also.
CatKen, there is at least one place you can get a towed scraper in 1/50. Buffalo Road Imports. They sell a Cat 90, a Bucyrus Erie and a Garwood towed cable scraper all of which are scaled to a D8-D9 sized tractor.
These are EMD products, white metal and resin models, and the quality is pretty good. They are a bit pricey, but they are also done in low volume which also drives the price up.
Here are a couple of links for you
http://www.toyline.com/bri
#90
http://www.toyline.com/bri/pictures/EMDN054.JPG
With D8 http://www.toyline.com/bri/pictures/EMDN058.JPG
Bucyrus Erie scraper
http://www.toyline.com/bri/pictures/EMDN027.JPG
Garwood scraper
http://www.toyline.com/bri/pictures/EMDN062G.JPG
Hope this helps,
alan627b

alan627b
01-04-2007, 01:05 PM
If anyone is looking for the Stewart Warner "Wings" styled guages like my D2 has, they have re-released some of them. NOT Cat branded.
http://www.stewartwarner.com/
Wings guages
http://www.sw-performance.com/products/Wings

Neil D
01-04-2007, 01:25 PM
Listening to some of the people here I do not mind if the club decides to reproduce some of the spares mentioned BUT not at the cost of dropping the models. Yes,there have been some bad decisions with the models with allegations concerning Speccast so I do not welcome the proposal for Speccast only to produce models. I have to stress here I have only a small interest in the older Cat stuff,I am more interested in the Cat machines from the forties on so I am not interested in stuff from the earlier period only. There has to be a balence I am not interested in subsidising a limited few parts for Cat machines I am not interested in, anyway I think Cat could produce this stuff which would not only make it genuiene but to a better quality!!
Last of all any further models should be 1/50 as that is the universal scale for plant models and also 1/24-1/25 for the larger models-it seems ironic to me some are complaining the club is not generating profit from the models yet all the plant manufacturers view the models not only as good promotion but also generate good profit.
Alan 627b please contact me at neildillon8@hotmail.com

Neil

Art From De Leon
01-04-2007, 08:30 PM
First Gear seems to have the best detailed toy. No one has made a rubber tired scraper or Caterpillar pull scraper. Just wanted to add that for the board members to consider. Tks Ken

I would also like to see, (and purchase) a scraper. Perhaps a D7 and a #70 scraper? These were the machines of choice when the county used to build their own roads. (Downside would be the amount of shelf space a 1/25th model would take).
Another machine I would like to see would be another version of a D9, with the inside mounted blade with single, center mounted blade cylinder.
My only other experiences with club edition toys is with The TWO CYLINDER Club, and their choice always seems to sell out.
Stephan also produced some otherwise unavailable JD tractors and they have become extremely desirable, so I do not think that ACMOC would have a problem selling any highly detailed model that they choose to produce.

alan627b
01-04-2007, 09:54 PM
Hey Art, you mean something like this?
D9G 9c Cushion Blade.
http://www.toyline.com/bri/pictures/EMDN108.JPG
Available from BRI $275 US. I have one of these and it's one of my favorite models. It's a combination of resin cast and white metal, and you can also get in in kit form and build it yourself. I'm not sure how hard it would be though. Looks great behind my 627's and 631E's! Makes my NZG D9G look like crap, too.
alan627b
Buffalo Road Imports
http://www.toyline.com/bri/
Go to the site, go to Departments, then Construction 1/40 to 1/60 scale, wait until the page loads, then scroll down to EMD products. Lot's of neat models.
here's the fast way to 1/50....
http://www.toyline.com/bri/scripts2/stores/brideptbrowse.idc?dept=CONSTRUCTION2

alan627b
01-04-2007, 09:58 PM
I'm still hoping Jerry Hall will someday do a 666 in 1/50 scale, maybe then I could afford to own one....

Willie
01-04-2007, 10:48 PM
Art; Cat Corp makes lots of money selling Lic. to companies to make toys with a big rolalty ( like 25%)and have been very kind to let us build a few without paying them a big piece of the action like everyone has to pay. if we had to pay same as others we would have no profit at all. They only allow us to make models of Cat machines from 1925 to 1960 in 1/16 scale only and only some that fit in that group. with permission. We can not make any other scale our anything out of the yr range, they are all lic. to companies that pay Cat Corp. (A 1/25 scale D6-10K for exaple newer then 1960 and wrong scale).
As for the gauges after initail set up evey bezel glass oil & Temp gauge with minor changes would be correct for anything in our allowed range. My 193?s 22 uses same gauges as your 1940s watsit. If you looked at what ever Cat you have it will have many parts with parts no. like L-829 the steering lever handles that was a 1927 part no. used on evey crawler from 1927 Cat 20 thru the last Cat made with the levers until few yrs ago, but Cat still makes then and arn't about to let us repo them. Thats why I choose Gauges Cat never made them and dosn't supply them anymore, along with the with they fit a large range of diff Cat machines that fit in our allowed era.
Anything above 1960 is out of our ACMOC scope and not allowed for our use for profit by Cat Corp.

Neil D
01-05-2007, 12:30 PM
Willie,now theres a point,why the 1960 cut-off date for the club?
What about a Caterpillar club covering right up to date after all we see photos and references to the more modern machines in the magazine all the time!

Neil

d4c24a
01-05-2007, 01:38 PM
Willie,now theres a point,why the 1960 cut-off date for the club?
What about a Caterpillar club covering right up to date after all we see photos and references to the more modern machines in the magazine all the time!

Neil

thats a good point neil my machine is 1962 i am a acmoc member ,but reading some recent posting it seems i may not be welcome:confused: hope you and all on the board had a good christmas and that your new year is good also,p/s TC sorry about the birthday invite but i missed the party myself:( work called