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gvanhouten
10-02-2019, 12:48 AM
I am new to the forum and need your help... I just purchased a D9G. 66A serial # It is in Hawaii and I can not for the life of me get it started...

First off the dozer has not been started for at least 3 years...

Here is what I have done...

Drained oil and replace with new of course and filters...

Replaced all 6 glow plugs

Replaced started wires and new starter... and new 40 amp fuse

Mystery oil in upper cylinder head through glow plugs... Lets sit for 12 hours and rolled engine afterwards...

Replaced Primary fuel filter

Replaced Secondary fuel filters.

Checked injection on IP pump (Plungers work nothing binded up)

Bled the lines through Air Vent Valve.

Replaced with fresh diesel... Drained the old out.


The issue is the fuel pressure gauge doesn't even move when cranking.. I know it needs to be 28psi... I did take out the the bypass valve to make sure it is clean.. No dirt looks very clean..

According to the service manual the only thing left is the fuel transfer pump...

How do you tell if the fuel transfer pump is the problem???? I removed it and the tang does not spin freely and was a bear to remove... I did crank the engine with the cover off of the transfer pump and the gears moved... Not sure if it is suppose to move faster....

So I am at a loss... I am pretty sure the fuel pressure is the issue as the engine just cranks and cranks with zero boom or smoke... I feel the pressure is not high enough to go through the injectors and into the cylinders...

Please help....

Neil
10-02-2019, 06:08 AM
I guess at this stage the quickest route to determine that would be to replace it with a known good transfer pump

gvanhouten
10-02-2019, 08:23 AM
I guess at this stage the quickest route to determine that would be to replace it with a known good transfer pump

That is true I ordered one last night... Here is to hoping she will start.... if not that then probably the injection pump I would imagine.

Rome K/G
10-02-2019, 08:40 AM
Did you fill the filter housing with fuel then put the cover on? Bleed air at top of filter housing while pumping priming pump? then when clear fuel appears bleed air at each pump while cranking starting with front pump and work your way back?

Neil
10-02-2019, 08:51 AM
That is true I ordered one last night... Here is to hoping she will start.... if not that then probably the injection pump I would imagine.

The other tactic that is used on the small tractors is to very lightly pressurize the fuel tank to "force" the fuel through a worn or unbled pump. Works like a charm and is a lot less messy than bleeding : ) Put about 5psi to the tank using a rubber cap from Home Depot. Drill a hole in it and put in a spare Schrader valve that you have lying around the shop - tubeless style works or screw-down

gvanhouten
10-02-2019, 09:24 AM
Did you fill the filter housing with fuel then put the cover on? Bleed air at top of filter housing while pumping priming pump? then when clear fuel appears bleed air at each pump while cranking starting with front pump and work your way back?

Yes, Filled both primary and secondary filters with diesel. I only bled the system through the Air vent valve. According to the service manual that is how it is done...

Again, the fuel pressure gauge does not move at all... I have a remote starter switch hooked up to starter so I can be down by the fuel filter. I have not used the priming pump ie hand pump... As it is worn and needs replacing..

gvanhouten
10-02-2019, 09:27 AM
The other tactic that is used on the small tractors is to very lightly pressurize the fuel tank to "force" the fuel through a worn or unbled pump. Works like a charm and is a lot less messy than bleeding : ) Put about 5psi to the tank using a rubber cap from Home Depot. Drill a hole in it and put in a spare Schrader valve that you have lying around the shop - tubeless style works or screw-down

Okay, I heard about this. So take off gas cap... Plug it not sure what a rubber cap is? Are you referring to a giant black plug??? Thank you for your help

Old Magnet
10-02-2019, 09:40 AM
Check the clearance between the transfer pump cover and gears. Should run 0.0008 to 0.0020" max. Resurfacing the gear side of the cover can sometimes allow recovery if excessively worn. Also check the gear tip to housing clearance. Usually about 0.004" is max.

Adding air pressure to the tank requires flow past the pump determined by clearances. Rapid flow would also be an indicator of pump wear.

dpendzic
10-02-2019, 10:02 AM
Okay, I heard about this. So take off gas cap... Plug it not sure what a rubber cap is? Are you referring to a giant black plug??? Thank you for your help

an old inner tube cut to fit around the tank neck with the fill valve with a clamp works pretty well also

gvanhouten
10-02-2019, 10:44 AM
Check the clearance between the transfer pump cover and gears. Should run 0.0008 to 0.0020" max. Resurfacing the gear side of the cover can sometimes allow recovery if excessively worn. Also check the gear tip to housing clearance. Usually about 0.004" is max.

Adding air pressure to the tank requires flow past the pump determined by clearances. Rapid flow would also be an indicator of pump wear.

Thank you for that. I ordered the new transfer pump and will probably cool my heals as she is so frustrating. It has the old primer plunger type pump that all the seals are completely shot... that connect to the cover of the transfer pump... Thanks and I will update everybody with the new pump and gauge and see if that helps out...

gvanhouten
10-02-2019, 10:45 AM
an old inner tube cut to fit around the tank neck with the fill valve with a clamp works pretty well also

That makes good sense I will try that as well...

Old Magnet
10-02-2019, 11:21 AM
Thank you for that. I ordered the new transfer pump and will probably cool my heals as she is so frustrating. It has the old primer plunger type pump that all the seals are completely shot... that connect to the cover of the transfer pump... Thanks and I will update everybody with the new pump and gauge and see if that helps out...

If the seals are shot, including the seat washer that may be a source of leakage preventing the transfer pump from taking suction. Are you aware that the priming pump knob needs to be rotated to seat/unseat the priming pump?

gvanhouten
10-02-2019, 12:25 PM
If the seals are shot, including the seat washer that may be a source of leakage preventing the transfer pump from taking suction. Are you aware that the priming pump knob needs to be rotated to seat/unseat the priming pump?

Yes, but thank you for pointing that out as the priming pump has so many leaks and caterpillar does offer a replacement but it needs an adapter ect... Its nuts what cat wants for a new pump. $275.00 I know there is aftermarket

Neil
10-02-2019, 06:46 PM
Could you put generic seals into the priming pump? I'm not familiar with its construction but maybe something jury-rigged would do the trick

BillWalter
10-02-2019, 07:17 PM
Without the hand priming

pump, your next best bet is to force air into the tank like already described. With throttle in shut off position, loosen all fuel lines at injectors!!! This will allow fuel to pass from tank, thru transfer pump thur filters, each high pressure pump and on up to injectors. When fuel is running out bubble free, close each line and Diesel engine will fire up when you hit the starter.
Good Luck; Bill Walter

gvanhouten
10-02-2019, 08:32 PM
Without the hand priming

pump, your next best bet is to force air into the tank like already described. With throttle in shut off position, loosen all fuel lines at injectors!!! This will allow fuel to pass from tank, thru transfer pump thur filters, each high pressure pump and on up to injectors. When fuel is running out bubble free, close each line and Diesel engine will fire up when you hit the starter.
Good Luck; Bill Walter

Thanks Bill but doesn't those injectors require pressure for them to open and squirt into the cylinder walls? I have ordered a new hand pump and adapter. And new fuel transfer pump... All should arrive next week... I pray she fires up then.... I even went ahead and purchased a new fuel pressure gauge to make sure the old one is not malfunctioned... I just want to cover all my bases. I only have about 30-40 gallons in the diesel tank.. I hope that is enough to fire her up.... I just want to see the fuel pressure gauge when cranking to be in the green so I know the supply side of the fuel is strong enough to fire up... Anything less and she refuses to start.....Thanks and please keep the ideas flowing as you guys know a ton more then I do... She is old but the D9G was one of the best dozers and she deserves to come alive again... The owner says the engine was overhauled at 1018 hours ago....Thanks again everybody...

Deas Plant.
10-02-2019, 10:15 PM
Hi, gvanhouten.
As per Bill Walter's description, I think you will get fuel as far as the injection pump with the throttle closed, i.e. in the shut-off position, but I think it needs to be open to get fuel to the injectors. As I understand it, closing the throttle right down moves the rack to a position where it shuts off all fuel supply to the injectors to stop the engine.

Also, to be able to bleed the injector pipes, I think the engine needs to be turning to make the individual injector pumps send fuel to their individual injectors. If your tractor still has the decompressor control, I would suggest having that in the start position while you are bleeding at the least first couple of injector lines. Once you get clean. bubble-free fuel to 2 or 3 injectors, the engine may well start if you move the decompressor lever to run and the rest will likely clear themselves

Now doubt, someone with better knowledge will correct me if I am wrong.

Just my 0.02.

Old Magnet
10-02-2019, 10:58 PM
If your trying to bleed the system at the injectors the injection pumps (throttle) needs to be open to establish flow. Under normal operation pumps/throttle is kept closed to build heat and avoid pumping raw fuel into the cylinders.

Deas Plant.
10-02-2019, 11:21 PM
Hi, Old Magnet.
Just as I thought. Thank you for the clarification.

Just my 0.02.

Wombat
10-03-2019, 12:18 AM
I get the impression that this maybe a direct electric start machine, in itself will mean battery life will limit the amount of time that cranking the engine and bleeding will be limited. I always found a full fuel tank made bleeding easier as the filter tower etc would bleed by gravity. Tractor should start with lower than operating fuel pressure and quickly build after starting.

Misterskill
10-03-2019, 12:24 AM
I get the impression that this maybe a direct electric start machine, in itself will mean battery life will limit the amount of time that cranking the engine and bleeding will be limited. I always found a full fuel tank made bleeding easier as the filter tower etc would bleed by gravity. Tractor should start with lower than operating fuel pressure and quickly build after starting.

Yeah, mine does

MichaelSmith
10-03-2019, 02:23 AM
Thank you for that. I ordered the new transfer pump and will probably cool my heals as she is so frustrating. It has the old primer plunger type pump that all the seals are completely shot... that connect to the cover of the transfer pump... Thanks and I will update everybody with the new pump and gauge and see if that helps out...

Everything will be alright, it's must work :) (https://www.farmtractorspecs.com/telescopic-handlers-specs/)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AgroCatalog (https://www.agro-catalog.com) - free parts catalog, user and service manual for agricultural machines

Rome K/G
10-03-2019, 08:24 AM
Sounds like some of you dont know the difference between injectors and pumps, you tell him to bleed the air at the injectors. Injectors or nozzle capsules are what injects the fuel and atomizes it into the prechambers, the pumps [on the injection pump housing] pump and measure the fuel to the nozzles. Open the air bleed screws on the pumps to bleed the air, it is not recommended to always loosen the lines due to damaging the line ferrules. But you can do it however you wish.
Maybe Old Mag can show the service manual pic of bleeding the pumps.

Old Magnet
10-03-2019, 09:12 AM
Does get a little more complicated when some of the pumps don't have bleed screws. Seating and unseating the injection line ferrules is not a good idea.

gvanhouten
10-03-2019, 01:15 PM
Hi, gvanhouten.
As per Bill Walter's description, I think you will get fuel as far as the injection pump with the throttle closed, i.e. in the shut-off position, but I think it needs to be open to get fuel to the injectors. As I understand it, closing the throttle right down moves the rack to a position where it shuts off all fuel supply to the injectors to stop the engine.

Also, to be able to bleed the injector pipes, I think the engine needs to be turning to make the individual injector pumps send fuel to their individual injectors. If your tractor still has the decompressor control, I would suggest having that in the start position while you are bleeding at the least first couple of injector lines. Once you get clean. bubble-free fuel to 2 or 3 injectors, the engine may well start if you move the decompressor lever to run and the rest will likely clear themselves

Now doubt, someone with better knowledge will correct me if I am wrong.

Just my 0.02.

Thank you for your reply.... What is most concerning is the gauge doesn't register any fuel pressure...So hence the new fuel transfer pump on its way... Yes the throttle (ie the governor I believe in the manual it is called..) Is a concern as if it is stuck in the off position it will never fire as it shuts off fuel into the cylinders... Thank you for posting and giving advice it is all so important...

gvanhouten
10-03-2019, 01:17 PM
Does get a little more complicated when some of the pumps don't have bleed screws. Seating and unseating the injection line ferrules is not a good idea.

Agreed but I have gotten fuel to the injectors however without proper fuel pressure I believe it doesn't even enter the cylinder to be atomized... The injectors have to have a pressure range to open and close....

gvanhouten
10-03-2019, 01:21 PM
Sounds like some of you dont know the difference between injectors and pumps, you tell him to bleed the air at the injectors. Injectors or nozzle capsules are what injects the fuel and atomizes it into the prechambers, the pumps [on the injection pump housing] pump and measure the fuel to the nozzles. Open the air bleed screws on the pumps to bleed the air, it is not recommended to always loosen the lines due to damaging the line ferrules. But you can do it however you wish.
Maybe Old Mag can show the service manual pic of bleeding the pumps.

I agree with what you are saying and Opening and closing can cause the ferules to wear and not seal properly... AM I correct that the pressure needs to be at least 25psi for the injector to open and squirt diesel into the pre chamber? Hence fuel pressure... The service manual states fuel transfer pump should be checked first after a number of other checks... All others checked out. Filters both primary and secondary. Bled system per manual and still no boom but no fuel pressure.. So I ordered new fuel transfer pump and gauge... Thanks for your help.....

Rome K/G
10-03-2019, 02:05 PM
The transfer pump supplies fuel at 20-25 psi through the filters and to the injection pumps, the injection pumps regulate and supply high pressure, not sure but I think 700 to 1200 psi to the injection nozzles, the injection nozzles have a set "crack pressure" that they shoot a spray pattern into the precombustion chambers then into the cylinders.

Old Magnet
10-03-2019, 02:22 PM
Capsule injectors should have an unseating pressure of 300 to 800 PSI. Discard if they don't make a minimum of 300 psi.
The old flat seat injectors have an unseating pressure of 1500 to 1750 psi.

Andrew
10-03-2019, 02:58 PM
Sounds like some of you dont know the difference between injectors and pumps, you tell him to bleed the air at the injectors. Injectors or nozzle capsules are what injects the fuel and atomizes it into the prechambers, the pumps [on the injection pump housing] pump and measure the fuel to the nozzles. Open the air bleed screws on the pumps to bleed the air, it is not recommended to always loosen the lines due to damaging the line ferrules. But you can do it however you wish.
Maybe Old Mag can show the service manual pic of bleeding the pumps.

You are correct Rome .
Some of the post's here are on totally the wrong track.
I have a D 9 injector pump here and the individual pumps dont have a bleed screw like the other tractors here.
The first thing to check is the movement of the individual fuel pump elements .
This will require removal of the inspection cover on the side of the injection pump housing.
Elements can be manually operated through here using a large screwdriver to pump fuel to the injectors .
When the injector squirts this should be easily heard.
Fuel should flow through a pump element if it is in the shut off positions .
Element needs to turn to fuel on position to close the port so it can pump at injection pressure.
While 28lb's is good for the transfer pump I have found provided the injector pump has positive pressure to it the engine will run.

gvanhouten
10-03-2019, 04:12 PM
You are correct Rome .
Some of the post's here are on totally the wrong track.
I have a D 9 injector pump here and the individual pumps dont have a bleed screw like the other tractors here.
The first thing to check is the movement of the individual fuel pump elements .
This will require removal of the inspection cover on the side of the injection pump housing.
Elements can be manually operated through here using a large screwdriver to pump fuel to the injectors .
When the injector squirts this should be easily heard.
Fuel should flow through a pump element if it is in the shut off positions .
Element needs to turn to fuel on position to close the port so it can pump at injection pressure.
While 28lb's is good for the transfer pump I have found provided the injector pump has positive pressure to it the engine will run.

Thanks Andrew and Rome,

The supply side needs to be squared away.... I cranked the engine with injector plate off and every plunger is moving... I need to go back and move the governor to ensure it is allowing fuel through to the injectors... End of story the engine doesn't smoke/it will never start without fuel in the combustion chamber... Plenty of combustion but nothing for fuel.... If the governor is in the off position then that could be a problem as well... I want to thank everyone for all their help...

Old Magnet
10-03-2019, 05:28 PM
Some folks need to review starting procedure. What part of off do you not understand?
Fuel does not flow from the pumps in the off position.

gvanhouten
10-03-2019, 05:36 PM
Some folks need to review starting procedure. What part of off do you not understand?
Fuel does not flow from the pumps in the off position.

Yes, totally agree with the governor pushed all the way forward is in the off position... Just because the governor lever is pulled toward you all the way does not mean it is allowing fuel to flow... Something sitting for 3 years things get seated and might not do what they are suppose to... It is a process... But I certainly agree with what you are stating... Typically, the governor is set to half way as it allows fuel to flow into the injector... The service manual is invaluable... Appreciate your help and input...

Rome K/G
10-03-2019, 06:04 PM
Years back in the late thirties or early forties Cat made a film called Diesel Simplicity it showed good detail how the Cat diesel system operated. The film on youtube by Cat Inc. is not the full length film. I have the old reel film but never could get it on youtube.

edb
10-03-2019, 10:46 PM
Hi Team,
cannot post pix to help but the D9G injection pump is of the standard Cat design of the day--similar to D7, D8.
Also these later Forged Body Elements do not have the bleed screws as fitted to the earlier units of the same design.
Most times when these have sat a while the rack and/or the Injection Pump elements can stick in the upstroke position.

When this occurs the rack system cannot turn the Elements to the Fuel On Position even though the external linkage is moved to the Full Fuel On Position.

In really basic terms and my garbled explanation :-

The rack system is only Indirectly forced to the Fuel On position by the tension the external linkages can apply by stretching/tensioning the Governor spring---there is not a positive connection to the rack.

The amount of tension in the spring working against the Governor Weight forces generated by the centrifugal force of the spinning weights--therefore Gov weight force versus Gov spring force--the balance then will determine the actual RPM's that the engine will run at.

Sometimes slamming the Operators governor control lever forwards to the Shut Off position and then Fully back, with a positive and quick movement fully to the end of its travel several times can loosen the sticky linkages/elements if the plungers are rising and falling on their cams.

If this does not work then remove the rectangular side cover--with the Caterpillar Fuel Injection equipment lettering on it, and check the elements rise and fall to their full extent of travel.
Any stuck ones gently tap up and down with a soft punch on the connecting yoke--these are really hard and can crack easily.

DO NOT TRY and force the rack Back and Forth as on any stuck elements it is possible to dislodge the Quadrant/Sector Gear position on the element's plunger and so loose the Factory set fuel delivery volume for any given rack position--engine can overspeed or not shutdown on the affected cylinder.

Remove the top of the air cleaner intake pipe and have a stout piece of board--sheet metal or similar to choke off the engine air supply whilst you use the at hand 3/4" open end spanner in your pocket to undo the injection lines to stop the runaway engine.
These precautions should be taken any time governor or Fuel injection pump work is carried for the first start afterwards.


Eddie B.

gvanhouten
10-04-2019, 12:48 AM
Hi Team,
cannot post pix to help but the D9G injection pump is of the standard Cat design of the day--similar to D7, D8.
Also these later Forged Body Elements do not have the bleed screws as fitted to the earlier units of the same design.
Most times when these have sat a while the rack and/or the Injection Pump elements can stick in the upstroke position.

When this occurs the rack system cannot turn the Elements to the Fuel On Position even though the external linkage is moved to the Full Fuel On Position.

In really basic terms and my garbled explanation :-

The rack system is only Indirectly forced to the Fuel On position by the tension the external linkages can apply by stretching/tensioning the Governor spring---there is not a positive connection to the rack.

The amount of tension in the spring working against the Governor Weight forces generated by the centrifugal force of the spinning weights--therefore Gov weight force versus Gov spring force--the balance then will determine the actual RPM's that the engine will run at.

Sometimes slamming the Operators governor control lever forwards to the Shut Off position and then Fully back, with a positive and quick movement fully to the end of its travel several times can loosen the sticky linkages/elements if the plungers are rising and falling on their cams.

If this does not work then remove the rectangular side cover--with the Caterpillar Fuel Injection equipment lettering on it, and check the elements rise and fall to their full extent of travel.
Any stuck ones gently tap up and down with a soft punch on the connecting yoke--these are really hard and can crack easily.

DO NOT TRY and force the rack Back and Forth as on any stuck elements it is possible to dislodge the Quadrant/Sector Gear position on the element's plunger and so loose the Factory set fuel delivery volume for any given rack position--engine can overspeed or not shutdown on the affected cylinder.

Remove the top of the air cleaner intake pipe and have a stout piece of board--sheet metal or similar to choke off the engine air supply whilst you use the at hand 3/4" open end spanner in your pocket to undo the injection lines to stop the runaway engine.
These precautions should be taken any time governor or Fuel injection pump work is carried for the first start afterwards.


Eddie B.

Eddie,

Thank you so much for this explanation as that makes perfect sense and basically could be my problem... Where as in the on position full throttle it is still closed... I will check to make sure the pistons on the injection pump are moving with the lever of the governor... Thank you again as I will re read this multiple times once I put the new fuel gauge and new transfer pump in when I get it this Saturday. Stay tuned... I know she will start with all this information... I am going to top the tank with diesel as it does make it easier to bleed the system... I will put 5 psi of pressure into the tank as to make sure it is easier to bleed... I will remove prior to make sure the screen on petcock valve is clear as to not be full of junk which prevents proper fuel supply flow.... Needless to say after I get her started I am so much more familiar with her... I must say I love the old iron..... I got bit by heavy equipment bug....I am clearing 27 acres for myself and enjoy it... I own a d7g that was babied and works flawless each day I go out and start her up.... Talk with you alll soon to update us all....

Andrew
10-04-2019, 03:34 AM
Thanks for posting the scans from the SRB Magnet.
Your post no 32. Photo 2 . fig D. clearly shows how low pressurised fuel from priming pump will flow through the injector pump when the element is in the fully shut off position .
Bill Walter also tried to explain this in post 15.
It goes without saying that the injector line must be removed to do this.
As Bill Walter tried to point out priming pressure fuel can be pushed all the way to the union at the injector when it is loosened .

Old Magnet
10-04-2019, 11:07 AM
I'm not buying it. Figure "D" shows the fuel supply port shut off, don't care what the supply source is. There is no alternate supply route other than maybe some leakage past a worn out plunger and barrel.

OK, in studying closer the key wording is no fuel can be trapped and injected in the off position as in the notch would vent any pressure and that venting route would be open to priming pump pressure so through flow to the injector connection would occur when vented. I stand corrected, learned something today.

Andrew
10-05-2019, 04:55 AM
Yes Magnet.
You only have to think about what happens when you spill time an engine.
But none of this is helping old mate in Hawaii get his 9 going.

PhilC
10-05-2019, 05:43 AM
Did the D9G have a pony motor originally? If so could it be the decompression lever is set to start instead of run?

gvanhouten
10-05-2019, 07:37 AM
Did the D9G have a pony motor originally? If so could it be the decompression lever is set to start instead of run?

No D9G is a 66A model puts her at 1970 and she always had an electric start....

Old Magnet
10-05-2019, 10:09 AM
By 66A Parts Book, 66A1 - 66A9417 had pony motor as standard and Direct Electric Start was an attachment option.
At 66A9418-up Direct Electric Start became standard and pony motor was an attachment option.
For 1970 s/n 8118 to 9229 would have had pony motor as standard.

gvanhouten
10-05-2019, 06:25 PM
By 66A Parts Book, 66A1 - 66A9417 had pony motor as standard and Direct Electric Start was an attachment option.
At 66A9418-up Direct Electric Start became standard and pony motor was an attachment option.
For 1970 s/n 8118 to 9229 would have had pony motor as standard.

Not sure why but caterpillar stated it never had one but I just know what it has now... Update... I received my new fuel transfer pump..... I compared it to the one I took out and the original one failed.. the tang on the new one is very easy and spins freely.... The original does not spin it is locked up the only way it spins if the whole piece rotates ie the entire silver piece not just the tang.... Well as old as she is something has to go... Still waiting on the primer pump and the adapter plate for the pump....

My only question is if the transfer pump completely failed could it ever start? I know my gauge never registered any pressure.. I believe it create slight suction but not what is necessary. Thanks for all your help.....

catskinner
10-05-2019, 07:22 PM
I have not seen the full serial # of this D9G. catskinner

Old Magnet
10-05-2019, 09:02 PM
Not sure why but caterpillar stated it never had one but I just know what it has now... Update... I received my new fuel transfer pump..... I compared it to the one I took out and the original one failed.. the tang on the new one is very easy and spins freely.... The original does not spin it is locked up the only way it spins if the whole piece rotates ie the entire silver piece not just the tang.... Well as old as she is something has to go... Still waiting on the primer pump and the adapter plate for the pump....

My only question is if the transfer pump completely failed could it ever start? I know my gauge never registered any pressure.. I believe it create slight suction but not what is necessary. Thanks for all your help.....

The pump input shaft and tang is supposed to be one piece. Not supposed to be able to rotate separately.

edb
10-05-2019, 09:10 PM
Hi,
very unlikely you would get enough fuel for a start as the fuel thru the Transf. pump would be what can leak by the close tolerances within the pump housing and between the gears.
Likely pump is rusty and clogged inside from water/crud further inhibiting fuel flow.
Cheers,
Eddie B.

Neil
10-05-2019, 09:12 PM
Not sure why but caterpillar stated it never had one but I just know what it has now... Update... I received my new fuel transfer pump..... I compared it to the one I took out and the original one failed.. the tang on the new one is very easy and spins freely.... The original does not spin it is locked up the only way it spins if the whole piece rotates ie the entire silver piece not just the tang.... Well as old as she is something has to go... Still waiting on the primer pump and the adapter plate for the pump....

My only question is if the transfer pump completely failed could it ever start? I know my gauge never registered any pressure.. I believe it create slight suction but not what is necessary. Thanks for all your help.....

I suppose it could have possibly started if the fuel level was such that gravity could have enabled "bleeding" of the pumps, but even if so, I'd be surprised if gravity would allow more than a few pops. It would all depend on how fast the fuel could flow through the non-turning transfer pump and the filter elements. You could do a quick science experiment : )
- fill the tank to the top
- park the tractor on a slope so the tank's up high
- loosen off the injector pipes (not advised but that's how you'd do it)
- wait until they're all weeping fuel clearly
- tighten pipes
- attempt a start and video it
- if it pops but doesn't run, put 5psi of air on the tank and try again.
I'd have idle curiosity in the outcome : )

tctractors
10-07-2019, 01:16 PM
Just a few comments it has already been pointed out that the D9G also the D8H had Direct Electric starting fitted as standard in the Spring of 1970, but it was an extra cost option pre' to this point, on the fuel bleeding job with a tank full of fuel on level ground if you undo the injector lines with the hand throttle placed in the "Shut Off" position fuel will come through the lines, a common issue to find on tractors left stood for some time is the rack control sticking, it might be worth removing the side plate and check things are running correctly. tctractors

gvanhouten
10-10-2019, 01:12 AM
Just a few comments it has already been pointed out that the D9G also the D8H had Direct Electric starting fitted as standard in the Spring of 1970, but it was an extra cost option pre' to this point, on the fuel bleeding job with a tank full of fuel on level ground if you undo the injector lines with the hand throttle placed in the "Shut Off" position fuel will come through the lines, a common issue to find on tractors left stood for some time is the rack control sticking, it might be worth removing the side plate and check things are running correctly. tctractors

Ok Update on D9g... I replaced the fuel transfer pump with a new one. New adapter and new priming pump... All new filters primary and secondary... New fuel pressure gauge... Well still did not start and seems to be doing the same thing.... Batteries where low as I had to bleed system and got dark...

One thing I did and believe the rack control might be my problem... So I need help on how to unstick a sticking rack???? I took off the side plate of the injector housing and when'd I move the throttle or governor nothing changes... The only thing that I see moving after removing cover plate below governor control is the spring that goes up and down when I Move the lever forward and backwards... I believe the rack control should be moving as well... Well it is not... I sprayed wd-40 in there but didn't want to force anything... Please advise.... Thanks everyone.......

ccjersey
10-10-2019, 08:01 AM
Looking into the injection pump housing, have someone roll the engine over and watch the pump plungers and their associated springs and lifters rise and fall. Hopefully they all fall back as the camshaft lobes pass beneath the lifter. If one or more do not fall back following the camshaft profile, that will have locked the rack in place. This is apparently in the fuel shutoff position in your case. Spray the pumps and plungers with penetrating oil and gently pry or tap the stuck plunger back down when the cam lobe isn't forcing it up and you may be able to get it free where it moves back down on its own.

Beware of prying the rack back and forth as you may twist the plunger gear quadrant on the stuck pump plungers which changes the fuel delivery calibration. If the plungers all move up and down correctly as the engine is turning, then investigate what else could be holding the rack. Could just be stuck in the support bushings or could be the governor is holding it in shutoff position. Simplest explanation is you need to snatch the throttle lever harder to get the governor over the shutoff detent.

gvanhouten
10-10-2019, 10:46 AM
Looking into the injection pump housing, have someone roll the engine over and watch the pump plungers and their associated springs and lifters rise and fall. Hopefully they all fall back as the camshaft lobes pass beneath the lifter. If one or more do not fall back following the camshaft profile, that will have locked the rack in place. This is apparently in the fuel shutoff position in your case. Spray the pumps and plungers with penetrating oil and gently pry or tap the stuck plunger back down when the cam lobe isn't forcing it up and you may be able to get it free where it moves back down on its own.

Beware of prying the rack back and forth as you may twist the plunger gear quadrant on the stuck pump plungers which changes the fuel delivery calibration. If the plungers all move up and down correctly as the engine is turning, then investigate what else could be holding the rack. Could just be stuck in the support bushings or could be the governor is holding it in shutoff position. Simplest explanation is you need to snatch the throttle lever harder to get the governor over the shutoff detent.

Thank you for the advice... I did use my starter switch which allows me to be right there and watch injector pump go up and down. It seems to be working nothing seems to be binding up and all plungers go up and down with the cam as I roll the engine...

I have snatched the governor lever pretty hard multiple times and still in the off position. Something has to be sticking to keep her in the shut off position... I opened up the governor plate and can see the spring and to me it just does not look like it is providing enough tension...

Am I correct when I move the governor lever the plungers should move or am I wrong? I put the governor in the middle position when starting.... The decelerator pedal I leave alone.... I have played with that ie step back in forth but I believe that should not be the problem.... I guess I will put more penetrating oil up their and keep snatching the lever back and forth..... I will take of the injector plate to make sure not lifters are stuck but last time they all appeared working properly.....Thank you so much and everyone for your help....

ccjersey
10-10-2019, 11:24 AM
If you're seeing the pumps moving up and down when the engine is rolling over and the governor spring changing position when you pull the throttle, I think you have shown that the rack is just stuck in its bushings. Note ......it seems to be stuck in fuel off position now......If you move it to fuel on but do not get it freely moving with the governor spring as you move the throttle, you could be setting yourself for a runaway when you do start the engine. Rack needs to move back and forth easily and smoothly before trying for a start!

Neil
10-10-2019, 04:14 PM
Check if there is any wiggle by hand at all in any of the pumps. If there's one that doesn't want to wiggle, then don't try to force the rack. But if they all move, then check if the rack itself wiggles, meaning rotation as opposed to to and fro. If it does, then it's probably free in which case you'll need to dive into the governor - something's probably stuck in there

gvanhouten
10-10-2019, 08:54 PM
If you're seeing the pumps moving up and down when the engine is rolling over and the governor spring changing position when you pull the throttle, I think you have shown that the rack is just stuck in its bushings. Note ......it seems to be stuck in fuel off position now......If you move it to fuel on but do not get it freely moving with the governor spring as you move the throttle, you could be setting yourself for a runaway when you do start the engine. Rack needs to move back and forth easily and smoothly before trying for a start!

The governor spring is not putting any pressure in any position. I It seems that it is a dead throttle adjuster.... I need to dive into the governor and tear that apart... One question that I need answers is does the rack move into a fuel on position and is it the spring that engages the rack into the different positions? I took the cover plate off and looked and used my starter switch on the starter and could see the weight spinning on the governor however the spring when using the throttle in any position does not put any type of tension on the spring... It looks like it slip off or whatever the top has broken off... All your help really helps thank you so much George

gvanhouten
10-10-2019, 10:39 PM
The governor spring is not putting any pressure in any position. I It seems that it is a dead throttle adjuster.... I need to dive into the governor and tear that apart... One question that I need answers is does the rack move into a fuel on position and is it the spring that engages the rack into the different positions? I took the cover plate off and looked and used my starter switch on the starter and could see the weight spinning on the governor however the spring when using the throttle in any position does not put any type of tension on the spring... It looks like it slip off or whatever the top has broken off... All your help really helps thank you so much George



The only thing I wonder is the reason why the spring has zero tension is because the rack is frozen in the fuel off position hence the reason there is zero spring compression??? Does that sound correct... I did not try to wiggle or move the rack as previous members said don't do it as you throw off the fuel timing/amount..... I know the governor has the issue but done want to tear it apart as if it is just frozen I need to work through that... So the situation is straight forward the spring in the governor has zero tension and the throttle lever in any position doesn't change that... Where is it binding is the question? I sprayed a huge can of wd-4 and no luck... The plungers go up and down no problem. I have not tried to wiggle the rack... Just so we are clear the rack is the injection pump rack correct all the plungers that go up and down when you crank the engine? There is a metal bar that connect them all on the top... That does not move when I move the lever and now I am certain it has to move freely.... Any and all suggestions are wanted at this point....

tctractors
10-11-2019, 12:05 AM
With the rack stuck in the fuel off position that is as you sit on the track looking in it's towards the fan, you need to get a can of W.D (or similar) and spray at the rack bushings and slides first, move the throttle control into the low idle position then with a pair of grips ease the rack towards the right of the pump, they stick easy but as soon as it starts to move you can emery off the rust from the rack and lube up with oil, once loose it should fly back and forward on the hand throttle control, on start-up as long as the rack is confirmed to be free you will be fine, a good day's work will get things running well. tctractors

gvanhouten
10-11-2019, 01:48 AM
With the rack stuck in the fuel off position that is as you sit on the track looking in it's towards the fan, you need to get a can of W.D (or similar) and spray at the rack bushings and slides first, move the throttle control into the low idle position then with a pair of grips ease the rack towards the right of the pump, they stick easy but as soon as it starts to move you can emery off the rust from the rack and lube up with oil, once loose it should fly back and forward on the hand throttle control, on start-up as long as the rack is confirmed to be free you will be fine, a good day's work will get things running well. tctractors

Thank you for your advice... Should I take off the fuel filter secondary again? Not that big of a deal but means I need to bleed the fuel lines again... Turn off the fuel petcock ect...On the rail or rack as we are calling it there seems to be a weep hole far right. Maybe a punch with a slight tap to free up? I was told be very very careful moving this as this can change fuel setting... Maybe try to roll it meaning up and down gently in one position to break the rust... When you say bushings do you mean the ends of the rack??? Where it slides between housings? Thank you for your help I believe I really understand what you are saying and how to do it.... Is the spring loose because of the rack being frozen? When it is free will there be more tension on the spring?

Neil
10-11-2019, 07:21 AM
Basic governor operations (details can vary by governor):
- throttle lever when pushed to full throttle pulls on a spring that attempts to slide the rack to full open
- the governing mechanism (e.g. flyweights) is solidly connected to the rack and as the engine speeds up, the governor attempts to close the rack down

So these two forces work against each other and find a balance. So, if you open the throttle right up, the spring should go tight(er) as it attempts to slide the rack open. If the rack can move and the engine is not running, it will slide to full open (other details notwithstanding).

So, as mentioned, your rack could be stuck. That's why I mentioned to try wiggling things with your fingers just to see if there is any movement there. If the rack can wiggle even just a little bit, then it's not seized. But it still might be blocked from sliding to full open. So if following tc's step isn't successful, then open up the governor and take a look. You can probably disconnect the rack from the mechanism in the governor that connects it to the flyweights and then try sliding it by hand. That should get us close to the root cause.

gvanhouten
10-11-2019, 07:31 AM
Basic governor operations (details can vary by governor):
- throttle lever when pushed to full throttle pulls on a spring that attempts to slide the rack to full open
- the governing mechanism (e.g. flyweights) is solidly connected to the rack and as the engine speeds up, the governor attempts to close the rack down

So these two forces work against each other and find a balance. So, if you open the throttle right up, the spring should go tight(er) as it attempts to slide the rack open. If the rack can move and the engine is not running, it will slide to full open (other details notwithstanding).

So, as mentioned, your rack could be stuck. That's why I mentioned to try wiggling things with your fingers just to see if there is any movement there. If the rack can wiggle even just a little bit, then it's not seized. But it still might be blocked from sliding to full open. So if following tc's step isn't successful, then open up the governor and take a look. You can probably disconnect the rack from the mechanism in the governor that connects it to the flyweights and then try sliding it by hand. That should get us close to the root cause.

Thanks Neils,

I did not even touch anything in the injection pump as I did not want to force anything.... The rack I did touch and she is not moving anywhere she is certainly stuck... And it appears to be in the off position... I will go back today and put pb blaster on it and try and wiggle it like you and tc stated... I will take my time... Rather then getting it all disconnected ie from the governor I need to free the rack... This seems common as many of you suggested... For me this is my first go around... Pretty frustrating this old girl won't start but I know this is the cause... The fuel in the off position through the governor will never run... Thank you again for guiding me through this... George. Ie I do have the service manual for this but does not state a damn thing to do with a stuck rack....

gvanhouten
10-11-2019, 07:45 AM
If you're seeing the pumps moving up and down when the engine is rolling over and the governor spring changing position when you pull the throttle, I think you have shown that the rack is just stuck in its bushings. Note ......it seems to be stuck in fuel off position now......If you move it to fuel on but do not get it freely moving with the governor spring as you move the throttle, you could be setting yourself for a runaway when you do start the engine. Rack needs to move back and forth easily and smoothly before trying for a start!

Thanks CCJersey, The governor spring does not change position when moving the throttle back and forth... The rack is really stuck and my understanding of the system is moving the rack the opposite will change it to fuel on position... I will not start it unless the rack works with the hand throttle and it is entirely free... It is certainly binded up. Ie the rack that is.... Well the good news is I know my problem now.... The bad news is I dont want to force or break anything..... I need patience and will attempt to do it.... Thanks again... I will keep you all posted....

STEPHEN
10-11-2019, 07:45 AM
If you don't know exactly what is stuck, you can always remove the individual pumps, checking them as you go before you mess with the gov. Anyone should be able to remove & replace pumps, not so when it comes to taking apart the gov. Very likely one of them is holding everything from moving.

ccjersey
10-11-2019, 08:08 AM
The governor should have a mechanism that latches the rack in the fuel off position when the throttle lever is pushed hard and a detent is passed. This may be what is stuck and holding the rack or the rack itself may be frozen in its support bushings.

tctractors
10-11-2019, 08:41 AM
Here we go, all you need to remove is the flat plate from the case that has the fuel pumps mounted to it, you have already checked that under cranking the fuel elements are not stuck and they all move up and down freely, so now follow what I have said and with the throttle moved just to the low idle position set into moving the rack to the right then to and fro and your done, no need to touch now't else or turn anything off. tctractors

gvanhouten
10-11-2019, 08:53 AM
Here we go, all you need to remove is the flat plate from the case that has the fuel pumps mounted to it, you have already checked that under cranking the fuel elements are not stuck and they all move up and down freely, so now follow what I have said and with the throttle moved just to the low idle position set into moving the rack to the right then to and fro and your done, no need to touch now't else or tern anything off. tctractors

okay will do.. I am off to do it in a couple of hours.... I will keep you posted,,,,, Thank you Thank you thank you,,,,,,

Neil
10-11-2019, 01:01 PM
Looking forward to the first smoke video! Sounds like you're just about there : )

kracked1
10-11-2019, 03:34 PM
Are you moving the throttle lever all the way past the stop. There was someone awhile ago on here that thought their rack was stuck. They didn't realize that it moved "that" far. Their tractor started right up when they went far enough. Some of those old girls went a long way to turn the fuel back on.

tctractors
10-11-2019, 11:59 PM
Are you moving the throttle lever all the way past the stop. There was someone awhile ago on here that thought their rack was stuck. They didn't realize that it moved "that" far. Their tractor started right up when they went far enough. Some of those old girls went a long way to turn the fuel back on.

If the fuel pump and linkage is any good or even half good by pulling the throttle control just a 3rd past the run position is all that should be needed to start engine. tctractors

gvanhouten
10-12-2019, 01:00 AM
If the fuel pump and linkage is any good or even half good by pulling the throttle control just a 3rd past the run position is all that should be needed to start engine. tctractors

The rack is stuck the lever is pulled past the detent but nothing moved on the rack do to it being stuck.... I am heading out first thing Hawaii time in the morning.... Wish me luck thank you everybody.... I plan on uploading a video to show her starting and what she looks like... I am excited.....

gvanhouten
10-12-2019, 01:01 AM
Looking forward to the first smoke video! Sounds like you're just about there : )

Thanks Neils; yes I am so close do to your help and others I am so excited... Look for the video.... Cross your fingers... I will do exactly what you said to the t.....

Rome K/G
10-12-2019, 06:41 PM
Check the oil pressure control detent on the governor.

gvanhouten
10-12-2019, 08:21 PM
Check the oil pressure control detent on the governor.

Well the rack for the injection pump was locked up in the close position... I got it freed and and now the lever for the governor works.

I tried starting her and started to see white smoke and used the glow plugs a ton... She started to try and start to no luck... The batteries went dead....

I bled the fuel lines before unlocking the rack... My understanding is when it is turned on ie the fuel pass the detent it becomes the high side... Now keep in mind I have turned and turned and turned the motor over and over without realizing until just recently that it was locked in the fuel off position... Do I need to bleed the fuel lines and bleed them again and again? She is being a real PIA. (Pain In The Ass)...

Need help with what you would recommend for bleeding now that the rack is open... Maybe the batteries where not powerful enough to turn over the starter fast enough for ignition...


Apprecitate all your help....

Rome K/G
10-12-2019, 08:38 PM
Good, shouldn't have to bleed anymore. Get the batteries up to full charge so the glow plugs get hot enough, hold the glow plugs on at least two minutes if really cold [ make sure each one is working also]. Just open the throttle half way as to not overload fuel in the cylinders when starting. If using either use short shots till it starts as to not overload the cylinders.

gvanhouten
10-12-2019, 08:58 PM
Good, shouldn't have to bleed anymore. Get the batteries up to full charge so the glow plugs get hot enough, hold the glow plugs on at least two minutes if really cold [ make sure each one is working also]. Just open the throttle half way as to not overload fuel in the cylinders when starting. If using either use short shots till it starts as to not overload the cylinders.

Rome,

Thanks for your reply, I just dont understand why it is so damn hard to start... Of course I understand now fuel rack being off... It seems the batteries just dont last and they are new... I replaced all the glow plugs with new ones.. How do I ensure that each one is lighting up.? Take it out turn on the glow plug and ground it then it should light up correct? Gas tank is full... I really thought she would start immediately with the gas on now.... SO disappointing....

edb
10-12-2019, 09:46 PM
Hi Team,
maybe with all the turning the piston rings are dry in the liners and so do not seal as they should.
If you remove and test the glow plugs, squirt about a dessert spoonful of oil into each glow plug hole to help lube the rings, bores as she tries to fire off.

From memory these engines would have something like 2 x BCI Group Size, 3D, Batteries in them for Direct Starting.

All cables and connection need to be in first class order or instant melt out (molten metal) at any resistance points will occur or at least low Amperage flow to the starter causing slow turning.

For best starting results Cat suggest that you need at least 100 to 120 RPM cranking speed to start the electric start, pre-combustion chambered glow plug start engine and also for a Direct Injection engine.

Personally I would try to start cranking with de-compression in de-compress position and when oil pressure is up, rest the starter and battery briefly, engage glow plugs for 2 mins as suggested and resume cranking and engage the compression and then open the Gov Control Lever about half way and see if you get smoke.

Others with more experience may suggest better methods for this so I stand to be corrected.

Regards,
Eddie B.

tctractors
10-13-2019, 12:23 AM
If the engine is putting out smoke and the rack control is free moving it will start, the glow plugs will show a discharge on the amp gauge of 30 amps, this is 5 amps per plug indicating they are all working correctly, you possibly missed your chance of a start-up due to your messing about pre to freeing off the rack, if the engine is coughing out white clouds it's not far off bursting into life, depending on how cold your area is will set how long you need to hold the pre heat 40 seconds is long enough on an average 15*c start , I would pull the throttle control a good way towards you then cover the decelerator with your right foot, as she starts the rack oil pressure controlled detent will de-latch, at this point you snub the engine speed down with the decelerator and move the throttle control forward to set it chopping wind at about 500-550rpm, I myself would not mess with anything or try to bleed anything if as you say the engine is coughing out white clouds as fuel is at the injectors, as for removing the glow plugs and squirting something down the hole it's a lot of messing about and something I would not bother with myself (but we all do things our way) just make sure the rack is still moving free before startup. tctractors ps, this tractor being direct start G would not have de-compress.

gvanhouten
10-13-2019, 01:50 PM
If the engine is putting out smoke and the rack control is free moving it will start, the glow plugs will show a discharge on the amp gauge of 30 amps, this is 5 amps per plug indicating they are all working correctly, you possibly missed your chance of a start-up due to your messing about pre to freeing off the rack, if the engine is coughing out white clouds it's not far off bursting into life, depending on how cold your area is will set how long you need to hold the pre heat 40 seconds is long enough on an average 15*c start , I would pull the throttle control a good way towards you then cover the decelerator with your right foot, as she starts the rack oil pressure controlled detent will de-latch, at this point you snub the engine speed down with the decelerator and move the throttle control forward to set it chopping wind at about 500-550rpm, I myself would not mess with anything or try to bleed anything if as you say the engine is coughing out white clouds as fuel is at the injectors, as for removing the glow plugs and squirting something down the hole it's a lot of messing about and something I would not bother with myself (but we all do things our way) just make sure the rack is still moving free before startup. tctractors ps, this tractor being direct start G would not have de-compress.

Well went back to her today and she is puffing some white smoke not coughing like she should. She has sat for over 4 years. Batteries just not strong enough put them back on charge.. They are 4dís wires in series of course with all new wires to ensure max power to starter....I know I am getting fuel because of the white smoke... not a ton like some of the other videos I have seen.... Maybe I didnít bleed the system properly??? I hate to use starter fluid but at this point I am at a loss... Any and all help would be most appreciated......Maybe check to make sure she is not half stuck???? I just donít know....

Rome K/G
10-13-2019, 02:11 PM
4D's are not enough, use 8D's around 1200 CCA plus each. Is it 24 starter system? with 24V glow plugs? My D7E factory electric start uses two Cat 101-4000 8D 1400 CCA batteries, the 4D's are hardly enough.

Neil
10-13-2019, 02:17 PM
Plus hook jumper leads from your pickup up to it and set it on high idle

gvanhouten
10-13-2019, 02:39 PM
4D's are not enough, use 8D's around 1200 CCA plus each. Is it 24 starter system? with 24V glow plugs? My D7E factory electric start uses two Cat 101-4000 8D 1400 CCA batteries, the 4D's are hardly enough.

Sorry for the confusion they are 2 8ds

Rome K/G
10-13-2019, 02:40 PM
"We just dont have enough power captin!!!!!!!

Rome K/G
10-13-2019, 02:40 PM
"I I captin."

kracked1
10-13-2019, 03:33 PM
A shot or two of ether may be what it needs to get going after sitting this long.

Misterskill
10-13-2019, 04:49 PM
Well went back to her today and she is puffing some white smoke not coughing like she should. She has sat for over 4 years. Batteries just not strong enough put them back on charge.. They are 4dís wires in series of course with all new wires to ensure max power to starter....I know I am getting fuel because of the white smoke... not a ton like some of the other videos I have seen.... Maybe I didnít bleed the system properly??? I hate to use starter fluid but at this point I am at a loss... Any and all help would be most appreciated......Maybe check to make sure she is not half stuck???? I just donít know....

How thick is the copper on the new wires?

gvanhouten
10-13-2019, 05:15 PM
How thick is the copper on the new wires?

For the starter 10 the mains are the same that came off....

Misterskill
10-13-2019, 06:24 PM
For the starter 10 the mains are the same that came off....

In decent condition? bigger the better for these main ones. Not too many broken strands where it goes into the lug?

If you suspect power i'd remove all the lugs and scruff the area up with a bit of sandpaper or file/grinder then replace them and tighten with a hiss of paint over the top. Not sure how the electric starter is wired but if there is an earth lead back to the frame clean that up too.

Just be aware of some of the Ebay cable if you go that way, they take measurements of the whole cable including the insulation and advertise that as the size.

tctractors
10-14-2019, 12:18 AM
Try the NO PRE-HEAT ether start method is going to be your best way forward I feel, if you have a hand priming pump in the fuel line give it a good few pumps before attempting the next start. tctractors

gvanhouten
10-14-2019, 01:12 AM
Try the NO PRE-HEAT ether start method is going to be your best way forward I feel, if you have a hand priming pump in the fuel line give it a good few pumps before attempting the next start. tctractors

Will do picked up a can today... Will try tommorow.... Remember this dozer is in Hawaii where it can get cold about 55 at night highs in the 70-75 but where this dozer was stashed was very very rainy....

I was talking with a dear friend who has been around the block and he stated he would check out the injectors... He has a very old d2 with pony motor and he stated put your money into the injectors to make sure all six are good... What is everyones thought with that? It makes sense...I was exception clouds of white smoke not just billowing smoke.... She has been dormant for over 4 years I am told.....Thanks as usual for all your help

Wombat
10-14-2019, 01:37 AM
My best guess is you will need to feed it a steady amount of go gas to get it firing and some heat in the heads, or it just needs lots and lots of heat with the glow plugs so long as you have the battery power.

Neil
10-14-2019, 08:33 AM
I put 2/0 (00) cables on my D2 with a 6v pony starter and it needs all of that, so 1/0 might be a bit light for your needs. 00 is about a third of an inch conductor diameter. With 2/0, my pony spins over very quickly. I also ran a second cable from the battery to the starter mounting bolt to minimize resistance through the box/fender etc. to the starter. Those cables need to be in tip-top order so you're not losing any capability. Jumper cables have limited ability due to the relatively small contact area so if you add those for extra juice, make sure they have really good contact

gvanhouten
10-14-2019, 09:28 AM
I put 2/0 (00) cables on my D2 with a 6v pony starter and it needs all of that, so 1/0 might be a bit light for your needs. 00 is about a third of an inch conductor diameter. With 2/0, my pony spins over very quickly. I also ran a second cable from the battery to the starter mounting bolt to minimize resistance through the box/fender etc. to the starter. Those cables need to be in tip-top order so you're not losing any capability. Jumper cables have limited ability due to the relatively small contact area so if you add those for extra juice, make sure they have really good contact

Neil,

Thank you for your reply. I have jumped the starter its self and have taken it out and brought it to be tested... It was rebuilt a year ago... The previous owner for the life of him could not get it running... He was not the most mechanical guy... So we know the starter is good... I replaced like I said all the main wires with what was original from a shop that does this all day long... So I know the battery leads are good... I used a very strong screw drive to bypass the wires and she spins the same way as using the switch.... The batteries should be back to fully charge.... I am taking off the air handler filter inner and outer and will shoot some starting fluid in her.... I will heat her up maybe with a torch ie weed torch using propane... Will make it easier to crank... The previous owner is going to meet me he has a big 955 loader that he has helped jumped me.... Cross your finger is today the day she comes back alive???

ccjersey
10-14-2019, 09:58 AM
Don't bother taking the air filters out, ether goes almost straight through anyway and it helps to keep from getting too much at once and locking the engine up.

On an engine that size, you are going to need to spray a heavy dose, not intermittent sniffs. I have an old R series MACK that looses its prime whenever it sits up for more than a day. I spray a constant stream of starting fluid into the air filter intake while cranking. This continues for maybe 10 seconds until the engine catches up and by that time it has usually picked up the fuel and after racing for a couple seconds it settles down to a normal idle. If i had an injector system to put the ether directly into the intake I could probably get by with a lot less, but it is what it is.

tctractors
10-14-2019, 11:57 AM
You can take the big filter away leaving the inner 1 in place it might help some? otherwise get it cranking and stuff it in the beast, DO NOT use the glow plugs, keep it rolling until it coughs up into life, don't mess with any injector cap's as D2 men are not tuned into D9's as they have noting in common other than UNC. tctractors

gvanhouten
10-14-2019, 11:29 PM
You can take the big filter away leaving the inner 1 in place it might help some? otherwise get it cranking and stuff it in the beast, DO NOT use the glow plugs, keep it rolling until it coughs up into life, don't mess with any injector cap's as D2 men are not tuned into D9's as they have noting in common other than UNC. tctractors

Well another day comes and go and of course I worked on her today.... Used the ether and I just hate the knocking..... I took both inner and outer filters out and gave it a couple short bursts... she clanked and clanked... The first 10 minutes between glowing and pumping the primer pump was great... She was so close to bursting to life... The batteries took a crap.... Had a jumper and a Cat 980 with jumpers and it helped but the batteries just said no more... I charged them for a day and a half and mind you they are brand new.... They are AC Delco 8d batteries.... They just do not seem powerful enough for a 1974 D9G..... They work but between glowing and starting they fade way too quick... She is really a pain in the ass now... Officially.... I think the injectors must not be properly functioning.... How hard are they to remove and check out and lastly should I go buy a CAT Battery for quality over a made in Mexico AC Delco HD 8D battery???HELP!!!!!

tctractors
10-15-2019, 12:19 AM
Stop your comments about injectors as that is not your issue, I did say NOT to use heater plugs and just stuff the laughing gas in to the engine, with the hand throttle pulled a good way towards the seat understanding that around a bit less than half of the travel is to shut down the engine, with the other half of the travel is from low to high idle it needs to be in the back 1/4 position it should fire. tctractors

gvanhouten
10-15-2019, 12:28 AM
Stop your comments about injectors as that is not your issue, I did say NOT to use heater plugs and just stuff the laughing gas in to the engine, with the hand throttle pulled a good way towards the seat understanding that around a bit less than half of the travel is to shut down the engine, with the other half of the travel is from low to high idle it needs to be in the back 1/4 position it should fire. tctractors

Ok if you believe the injectors are not the problem that is good enough for me.... I will pull the throttle back all the way and budge it back just a smidge... Does it sound okay for the batteries to go down that fast? It seems like it should ie the batteries last a lot longer then they are..... Would you buy the cat batteries instead of these ac Delco 8d batteries....

gvanhouten
10-15-2019, 12:39 AM
Stop your comments about injectors as that is not your issue, I did say NOT to use heater plugs and just stuff the laughing gas in to the engine, with the hand throttle pulled a good way towards the seat understanding that around a bit less than half of the travel is to shut down the engine, with the other half of the travel is from low to high idle it needs to be in the back 1/4 position it should fire. tctractors

Got it with regards to glow vs ether... So just do ether and pull it back all the way and pump it back forward to make it just a little. So it seems like the glow plugs then the ether just drains the batteries and then messes things up... I got it and will report back.. If you could just give me your opinion on the batteries that would be helpful...Thanks

Ac Delco 8DHD Batteries are 580 LTA 1155 CCA 380RC of course 12 volts... and two are required of course and I believe Cat is 1500CCA... That is a big difference when looking at two of them in series... That is a difference of 690 CCA.. Not sure if that makes a ton difference but enough to not start???? And 380 Reserve Cranking Amps.. Might be too small.....

Misterskill
10-15-2019, 02:21 AM
This a short clip of my D9 starting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKY1CUTq3Rg

DISCLAIMER: Yes i am now aware it is the incorrect procedure, but it was how the old owner told me before i knew better.

The first 5 seconds are with fuel and no compression (with wispy smoke), then i kick the compression lever and it coughs and splutters. Is yours smoking like that or is it actually trying to do something?

Cannot help you with battery sizes sorry, but i would have thought 1150cca would be enough to get it going.

kracked1
10-15-2019, 05:55 AM
My question is why was it parked originally? Usually they aren't just parked for no reason. It was also said the previous owner couldn't get it to run either.

Neil
10-15-2019, 07:05 AM
Could be possible that your starter motor is not in the best health rather than the batteries not being sufficient - that might explain why the new batteries don't seem to be cutting it

gvanhouten
10-15-2019, 07:11 AM
Could be possible that your starter motor is not in the best health rather than the batteries not being sufficient - that might explain why the new batteries don't seem to be cutting it

The starter was taken out originally and checked out and that was not the issue...It was rebuilt about a year or so ago.... I just took it out again and it checked out on the bench....

gvanhouten
10-15-2019, 07:14 AM
My question is why was it parked originally? Usually they aren't just parked for no reason. It was also said the previous owner couldn't get it to run either.

The man that owned her originally parked her and used newer equipment. He was an operator not a mechanic... He has tried and helped me and is perplexed as well... He did not know anything about the fuel rack. He didn't even notice there was zero smoke...

gvanhouten
10-15-2019, 07:25 AM
This a short clip of my D9 starting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKY1CUTq3Rg

DISCLAIMER: Yes i am now aware it is the incorrect procedure, but it was how the old owner told me before i knew better.

The first 5 seconds are with fuel and no compression (with wispy smoke), then i kick the compression lever and it coughs and splutters. Is yours smoking like that or is it actually trying to do something?

Cannot help you with battery sizes sorry, but i would have thought 1150cca would be enough to get it going.


Sounds like you have a pony motor on your D9. I wish mind did as well...

What I have done was glow her for 2 minutes... Light white smoke appears... I then throw back the throttle and she catches a little bit yesterday she was so close got a nice black smoke and she was right there and then bam nothing she went backwards... I think we lost battery power and now I am unsure if the starter has been the issue... Although I took it off and got it tested by the guy that rebuilds them and he said no she is good and they rarely go bad can last another 30 years...

Neil
10-15-2019, 08:01 AM
If you could post a video of turning it over with freshly charged batteries, someone here will be able to comment on whether it sounds like it's turning over fast enough. Cranking speed can make all the difference other things being equal.

gvanhouten
10-15-2019, 08:57 AM
If you could post a video of turning it over with freshly charged batteries, someone here will be able to comment on whether it sounds like it's turning over fast enough. Cranking speed can make all the difference other things being equal.

I will post the link to youtube as this will not allow me to upload my file....


Here is the Youtube Video showing the start.....

https://youtu.be/BsA_2XpwMK8

Ray54
10-15-2019, 09:43 AM
I have felt your frustration and after time things that you would not expect have become evident. One 40 hp green tractor that started well or could be no crank,had corousion 3 to 4 inches down the cable under perfect looking insulation. It finally pulled apart as I cleaned the terminal in a no crank episode. How it had cranked it in that condition is a mystery to me. But started fine,turned it off to replace shear bolt on PTO and another no crank.


So being older and wiser,maybe time to test every wire that could be sucking up part of your juice.

But have also found some batteries no matter the brand or rating are just not as good as others. Being frugal/cheap :wink: I would look to borrow batteries from a machine that is starting well and see if the batteries could be the problem. But just having 2 sets for this first start could be the missing part. As you got it closer to warm from the cranking ,I am always wanting to get a bit more cranking at that point.

Good luck as in this case a mechanic that has seen everything or luck are your best friend.

gvanhouten
10-15-2019, 10:01 AM
I have felt your frustration and after time things that you would not expect have become evident. One 40 hp green tractor that started well or could be no crank,had corousion 3 to 4 inches down the cable under perfect looking insulation. It finally pulled apart as I clean the terminal in a no crank episode. How it had cranked it in that condition is a mystery to me. But started fine,turned it off to replace shear bolt on PTO and another no crank.


So being older and wiser,maybe time to test every wire that could be sucking up part of your juice.

But have also found some batteries no matter the brand or rating are just not as good as others. Being frugal/cheap :wink: I would look to borrow batteries from a machine that is starting well and see if the batteries could be the problem. But just having 2 sets for this first start could be the missing part. As you got it closer to warm from the cranking ,I am always wanting to get a bit more cranking at that point.

Good luck as in this case a mechanic that has seen everything or luck are your best friend.

Thank you for your reply... I am right there with you regarding frustration.... The video shows crank crank crank crank crank... The starter sounds find to me but might not be fast enough to build up compression for boom...

Old Magnet
10-15-2019, 10:26 AM
Starter sounds like it's working hard but doing the job.
That is a 50MT starter on there, correct??

gvanhouten
10-15-2019, 10:29 AM
I will post the link to youtube as this will not allow me to upload my file....


Here is the Youtube Video showing the start.....

https://youtu.be/BsA_2XpwMK8


Starter sounds like it's working hard but doing the job.
That is a 50MT starter on there, correct??

I believe it is...

Neil
10-15-2019, 10:37 AM
It definitely sounds fast enough, and we can hear that on the occasional cylinder it does fire as the starter momentarily speeds up. Does it puff out a small cloud in correspondence with that sporadic firing? Were you giving it some ether on the video? I'm guessing no as I couldn't hear that nasty death rattle it gives. Many questions and no real answers sorry. I'd probably be inclined to squirt a bit of oil down the side of each cylinder to rule out the compression angle if the ether is not producing results.
Is the starter motor 12v? Another option could be to try 24v to the starter for a brief try to increase the cranking speed even more but someone on here will chime in if that's a viable option.

gvanhouten
10-15-2019, 10:45 AM
It definitely sounds fast enough, and we can hear that on the occasional cylinder it does fire as the starter momentarily speeds up. Does it puff out a small cloud in correspondence with that sporadic firing? Were you giving it some ether on the video? I'm guessing no as I couldn't hear that nasty death rattle it gives. Many questions and no real answers sorry. I'd probably be inclined to squirt a bit of oil down the side of each cylinder to rule out the compression angle if the ether is not producing results.
Is the starter motor 12v? Another option could be to try 24v to the starter for a brief try to increase the cranking speed even more but someone on here will chime in if that's a viable option.

Hi Neil I have used the ether but can't stand the rattle... I did put mystery oil down the cylinders through the glow plug ports...

The starter is 24volts... It sounds fast to me as well...

What would I be looking at if there was not enough compression? What does the oil do? Meaning by putting it into the cylinders? Thanks for your help

Rome K/G
10-15-2019, 01:36 PM
Just dont seem like its getting enough fuel in the cylinders. Remove the front three injector lines on the injection pumps and turn it over with throttle half open and see if there is clear fuel pumping out or just foamy fuel. I dont think you have all the air out yet. If its foamy then keep pumping the primer pump until theres clear fuel.

tctractors
10-15-2019, 02:06 PM
The video I see shows NO fuel clouds coming out of the exhaust? to bleed the lines push the throttle all the way forward (shut off) then undo the injector lines at the injectors a few full turns then pump the fuel primer pump until fuel flows out of line nuts tightening them up as you go. tctractors

Rome K/G
10-15-2019, 03:04 PM
How are the injector pumps going to pump or let fuel through them when the rack has them in the closed position as your stating "with throttle shutoff"?

Neil
10-15-2019, 03:27 PM
In the off position, the scroll is open between the inlet and the outlet, allowing fuel to flow through the pump. They won't pump but they will allow fuel to pass

edb
10-15-2019, 04:03 PM
Hi Team,
from a Yellow SRB is the following description of operation.

Note in Fig. D, Page 3, that the milled out vertical section on the plunger side is aligned to the fuel gallery port so as when the plunger rises and falls no fuel is trapped above the plunger to be injected as is described in the text and seen in the Figures.


EDIT---
note that these Cat Injection pumps have very weak Delivery Valve Springs and it only takes a pound or two of fuel pressure to open these valves and pass out of any high pressure injection line joint to an injector that is open, hence pumping the hand bleed pump will get fuel flow from these open line joints. same if the tank was lightly pressurised--but only at the leakage rate past the gears and their housings thru the Transfer Pump.

Cheers,
Eddie B.

edb
10-15-2019, 04:30 PM
Hi Team,
having watched the video I do not believe that the engine is getting fuel or even turning fast enough to fire if it was.

If the engine coughed backwards then that is a sign of over use of either starting fluid I have seen in the past on other engines that had excess either sprayed into them when turning too slow.

I have a cheap laser beam digital RPM meter that I use for such--you need at least 100-120 RPM for a reasonable cold start even with glow plugs.

Maybe jump the glow plugs from another set of smaller batteries to see if that helps your full charged batteries get the starter to turn the engine to the needed RPM's.

To me the starter is not far off chattering the solenoid due to low current or sluggish starter.

I cannot tell for sure, but it appears there could be a plastic bag or such over the exhaust--if it is it will choke off air flow thru the engine for any injected fuel to burn in.
All that said, there is still no smoke--that thing should be pushing out clouds of white, grey or black smoke if it is getting fuel even when turning at that, to me, slowish speed.

No time to write or think more on this just now--Sorry.

EDIT
silly thought for the day-----is the blade control lever in the down or up position -----this will add a parasitic load to the engine by turning the hydraulic pump against a load causing low cranking speed.
Same goes for any rear attachments be they ripper or such or a winch.
Cheers,
Eddie B.

BigAgCat
10-15-2019, 06:02 PM
Do you have a fuel pressure gauge?

Does it show fuel pressure when cranking?

Maybe the fuel filters are plugged?

kracked1
10-15-2019, 07:38 PM
I agree, you are not getting fuel to the engine. There should be huge white clouds of unburned fuel.

gvanhouten
10-16-2019, 02:24 PM
I am going to post more videos later today Hawaii time... I do not think it is fast enough either... The only thing is replacing starter and new set of cat batteries... I replaced all wires to the starter and bled the crap out of the system... When full charged batteries the engine smokes more and we get some black smoke... We get light puffs of white smoke now but the only thing I can think is the batteries and or starter....

I have watched the injection pump and everything is going up and down... Nothing is bound or hung up... Is there anything in the governor that would prevent fuel from flowing even though the rack is free????

gvanhouten
10-16-2019, 02:27 PM
Do you have a fuel pressure gauge?

Does it show fuel pressure when cranking?

Maybe the fuel filters are plugged?

Fuel filters are brand new and both primary and secondary... New fuel pressure gauge new transfer pump... New hand pump... Fuel gauge just only shows pressure when cranking but in the red.... Full tank of diesel

rax200
10-16-2019, 03:09 PM
Hi gvanhouten,

Just a thought try putting 3 x 12v battreies in series this would give you 36v and would turn it over a lot quicker.

The starter would handle it in short bursts as a lot of older rail cars in Australia run 36v and used 24v starters.

You woul have to disconnect the wire from the battery to generator so you dont burn it out


Regards

catskinner
10-16-2019, 09:05 PM
Something is screwy here. In the first you tube you showed, it has a pony motor running on it and it was putting out Black smoke. That is when it should have had some either. That was post # 103 I believe. In the second one, there is no sound of a pony motor running. What is going on here? catskinner

gvanhouten
10-16-2019, 10:45 PM
Something is screwy here. In the first you tube you showed, it has a pony motor running on it and it was putting out Black smoke. That is when it should have had some either. That was post # 103 I believe. In the second one, there is no sound of a pony motor running. What is going on here? catskinner

Post 103 is someone showing me how they start their D9G not mine... The last one with no pony motor shows my D9G that has a starter...

catskinner
10-17-2019, 08:52 PM
OK, thank you. That explains it. catskinner

kracked1
10-20-2019, 08:17 AM
No updates?

gvanhouten
10-20-2019, 10:52 AM
No updates?

Well it has been a couple days.... Still she is Stuck in Hawaii.... That is the new title.... Ha Ha could be worse... Anyway...

I went ahead and bought all new nozzles for the injectors and seats/o rings.. So she is squared away there... No that really did not make any difference... It just seems she is not getting enough fuel... So I replaced fuel transfer pump with a new way back when this started thinking that could be my problem... Well that did not work...

Just yesterday I went back to the old girl and made a very long video and a shorter video... In this post I have the injection pump lines cracked so you can see the pressure... It is not very good pressure to say the least... In the fuel off position with the rack fully closed she is still squirting. In the fuel on position or high side she squirts a little but nothing strong... I can put my finger over the port and feel a little pressure but not much maybe 10 psi. I believe this is my problem as on the fuel side on it is the high pressure side and she can never open an injector with that little pressure...

Please take a look and tell me what you think??? Appreciate everybody help... Here is the link below

https://youtu.be/8Pw5DdqFPDU

edb
10-20-2019, 04:24 PM
Hi Team,
could you do a video of the squirt with the rack in the OFF position please, so we can compare the two situations.
Seems to be ample BUT they CAN squirt like that in fuel off too if the transfer pump pressure is good.

You mention only a low pressure at the injection pump outlet when cranking, so I feel you are still in the fuel OFF position as you also mentioned that the rack does not move towards the fuel ON position when you believe that you have the linkage moved to fuel ON.

Also would suggest that you connect an injector to the end of an injection line--you need the injector to line adaptor from a precomb, gently screw the injector nozzle onto the adaptor with a pair of pliers or such and keep your body and parts outs of the spray and see if you get fuel thru the nozzle--I think CCJ suggested this a fair way back in this saga.

Can you feel the resistance of the fuel shutoff detent as you move the linkage from fuel On to fuel OFF etc.??

There should be a lever at the back of the Governor/fuel injection pump housing that could have a missing, broken, stripped bolt/key or such and so is not moving the Gov back thru the detent to fuel ON--not familiar with early D353 Gov etc. only later one--likely the same though. Flying blind here with no pics from Serv. Man. or Parts Book.

Check and see if you can see that the Gov. control shaft into the Gov., mentioned above, is or is not turning in the lever--even if well worn this may give lost motion that causes the linkage to bottom out somewhere in its path to the Gov from the Operators lever. Check inside the console and see if something foreign is in there inhibiting lever/linkage travel.


If an injection pump unit has been removed and replaced it is possible that the sector gear on the plunger could be out of time--if this is so you can get either of two situations--
1/ you cannot get full rack opening or
2/ you cannot shut off the rack and so get destructive engine overspeed---you would have mega amounts of high pressure fuel injected which you are not getting here--you appear to have low pressure fuel in abundance.

Cheers,
Eddie B.

gvanhouten
10-20-2019, 04:58 PM
Hi Team,
could you do a video of the squirt with the rack in the OFF position please, so we can compare the two situations.
Seems to be ample BUT they CAN squirt like that in fuel off too if the transfer pump pressure is good.

You mention only a low pressure at the injection pump outlet when cranking, so I feel you are still in the fuel OFF position as you also mentioned that the rack does not move towards the fuel ON position when you believe that you have the linkage moved to fuel ON.

Also would suggest that you connect an injector to the end of an injection line--you need the injector to line adaptor from a precomb, gently screw the injector nozzle onto the adaptor with a pair of pliers or such and keep your body and parts outs of the spray and see if you get fuel thru the nozzle--I think CCJ suggested this a fair way back in this saga.

Can you feel the resistance of the fuel shutoff detent as you move the linkage from fuel On to fuel OFF etc.??

There should be a lever at the back of the Governor/fuel injection pump housing that could have a missing, broken, stripped bolt/key or such and so is not moving the Gov back thru the detent to fuel ON--not familiar with early D353 Gov etc. only later one--likely the same though. Flying blind here with no pics from Serv. Man. or Parts Book.

Check and see if you can see that the Gov. control shaft into the Gov., mentioned above, is or is not turning in the lever--even if well worn this may give lost motion that causes the linkage to bottom out somewhere in its path to the Gov from the Operators lever. Check inside the console and see if something foreign is in there inhibiting lever/linkage travel.


If an injection pump unit has been removed and replaced it is possible that the sector gear on the plunger could be out of time--if this is so you can get either of two situations--
1/ you cannot get full rack opening or
2/ you cannot shut off the rack and so get destructive engine overspeed---you would have mega amounts of high pressure fuel injected which you are not getting here--you appear to have low pressure fuel in abundance.

Cheers,
Eddie B.

Eddie, Thank you and my apologies regarding the other thread. I will post from now on only one thread...The pump is pumping but in very little pressure. With the governor in The fuel off position it pumps basically the same as when the rack is in the on position... I replaced the nozzles of the injectors... How can the injector pump crack the injector with this little pressure. My engine cranks but little to no fuel entering the combustion chamber. The governor appears to be working but it just doesnít make sent that the IP in the fuel on position has zero pressure and is squirting the way it is.... if someone can explain this to me I would be grateful...

Old Magnet
10-20-2019, 05:11 PM
If running in the off position with lines disconnected fuel would be a steady stream when running off the transfer pump. The pulsing indicates the rack is in the open position and pump strokes are occurring. Again, off is not off, just prevents injection pressures.

1951D2
10-20-2019, 05:12 PM
Maybe a check of the plunger height of the pumps. I have had more than one engine have low height of the plungers and that is retarded timing and they would smoke at cranking and just could not get to the firing of the cylinders due to late timing. Just a thought, do not claim to know anything.