"Old wrote:

Hi Mike,
There are a lot of good ideas in what you say but the trick is not going broke while administering them.

I'm thinking maybe some kind of coupon sale system may work where purchased coupons entitle the requestor to answers and documentation for questions asked to their satisfaction.

I believe a sort of version of this already exists on the net called Ask.com.
Can't say that I've used it or that I've been impressed with questions/answers involving tractors but it might work as an alternative to just giving the information away for nothing. Also could be some differentiation for member and nonmembers.

As far as models go with all the real toys in the hobby I just can't see adding dust collectors as a long term solution. There are no toy models in my house and I don't want any either. I think direct related items to supporting and restoring equipment are much more relavent to the hobby.

Just grinding some gears here, not trying to get on the soap box.

Hi Pete, I'm with you on the model thing, I'd rather spend $300 towards buying a real Cat 22 or 2 Ton wreck to save for future generations, than have the toy on the shelf, but hey, different strokes for different folks is what I get told.

I know we have some really computer savvy folks in the Club, and some very wealthy members too, and a lot of good folks with not much spare money, but plenty of spare time, time for maybe scanning Part Number Books for the Club and assembling the info into a format it can easily be sold through the ACMOC Store, or Cat. Dealers at maybe a buck or two a page, because most folks are only looking for a specific parts diagram 98% of the time aren't they, not the whole Parts Book. Somehow we need a few of these good folks with those talents to step up to the plate and offer to help solve some of these minor problems, so I think the 50 gallon oil barrel you are currently standing on is far more appropriate than my little soapbox for achieving that goal.
regards
Mike

Thank you, Mike, for chiming in on this subject. You've brought in some very good thoughts.

(1) We continue to look hard at club dues. You will recall we did an increase back at the end of 2011. If you look at our financials, the dues revenue just about covers the cost of magazine and website production. This means there is nothing left over to operate the club after we produce and send the magazines out and keep the website up and running. This is only if you exclude the occasional cost like the $11,500 upgrade we're in the middle of.

We hesitate to just raise dues without being able to point to at least a little token value added for that increase. Our membership numbers have been very stable over the past few years at just about 2,900 worldwide. Our new office staff have really focused on membership retention and growth over the past couple of years and we are starting to see just a slight uptick. You may have noticed the outreach if your subscription was reaching renewal time with postcards, emails and other direct contact.

I've been a little afraid of backlash for a $5.00 or $10.00 per year increase, even though other similar clubs, like the Two Cylinder and Ford Clubs, for example, do have higher dues. We may need to bite the bullet and consider another increase soon. A $10.00 annual increase would mean another $29,000 towards club operations, which could make a big difference.

(2) You are spot on with your comments about the bulletin board. I didn't mention it earlier, but one of the benefits we expect from the website upgrade, which will integrate our various databases together, is the ability to accept and acknowledge voluntary contributions targeted to the bulletin board, generally to the website, or to the Club in general. Those donations will be able to be made through the store and will result in attachment of a banner to your handle which will say, for example, "BB Supporter" or "Website Supporter". We also hope to be able to identify ACMOC members with a banner below their handle.

This type of integration was not possible with our existing platforms because the bb is a separate database from the rest of the website, from our online store and from our membership database. With our current structure, provision of these banners would involve accepting the money through the store, our office people manually updating the membership database and the bulletin board database, then monitoring to manually remove the banners when the contribution period expires. It wasn't functional before, but is supposed to be with the upgrade.

Your thoughts about the parts books for the tractors is a good one. Our Website Committee and our Board have struggled a bit with the Member's Area of the website. We have felt that it is an underused resource. Most of us don't use it because there isn't much there to see. On the other hand, when we talk about it periodically, we have a hard time figuring out how to create contact without costing a bunch of time or money which would outweigh the benefit.

I don't think anyone ever really thought about the manuals as a potential draw. I agree with your point that these should be offered to Club members, which number 2,900, but to bulletin board supporters, too. We have over 14,000 registered bulletin board users. I hope that more of those users will become Club members, or that they will at least become voluntary bulletin board supporters, when that functionality becomes available. Creating a supporters area where useful information is available, such as the parts books for download or print, is a great idea.

One of the barriers to undertaking sales of the parts books is that most of them are only archived in paper form. I believe Caterpillar, Inc. told us there are something like 7,000 documents in a room full of boxes. Many of the most common books, though, have been scanned already at high quality to facilitate printing for the programs that have already been done. I believe those scans would be available to us as a Club if we did this project. Those scans could be put in the supporter's area. We could put a poll or some way to request the next scans and maybe, over time, find some money to scan a few more books every once in a while.

We might be able to convince Caterpillar, Inc. to put a reference in their dealer parts system so that when someone makes an inquiry about parts books, they would refer the user to our website. It used to be that when you went to your local dealer looking for, say, a D2 book, the book came up in the parts system as supplied by Midland Press with a price for order. Instead of that, if the dealer gave the website reference to the person making the inquiry, we might gain a forum user and a member out of the transaction, and they could download the manual they want for free, as long as they made a one time donation to the forum. I'm just thinking out loud here, but this is a very good suggestion.

(3) We have worked very hard with Caterpillar, Inc. to create visibility within the dealer network, including getting merchandise into the dealers. Caterpillar is a very successful company and is very helpful to us, but sometimes it is hard for them to think in a scale which doesn't have nine zeros attached to the end. They were very supportive of marketing our models and other merchandise to the dealers. Their suggestion, though, was that we attend their quarterly worldwide dealer merchandise conference. It would cost us over $2,500 in fees to have a booth at the conference. That didn't include the travel, lodging and other costs to attend. This just wasn't cost effective for us.

Also, Caterpillar does such a good job licensing their brand that most of those niches are already sold to someone. There is a licensee who has rights to sell models at wholesale to the dealers for placement on their counters. You may have seen the models of modern machines near the parts counters at most dealers. This licensee puts those models there and works with the dealer to decide what to display and how to price it. We would have to work through this licensee to get our product in there, and offer discounts to allow him to make money and the dealer to make money on each unit sold. By the time we explored this model, we found that it was not cost effective for us, because there wouldn't be enough cash left in each unit for us to make money.

Another problem with our models is the price point. When we were pricing models at $99.00 or less at retail, they sold much better and were realistic alternatives for people to buy as gifts or for the kids to play with. Costs in China have increased dramatically, pushing our retail prices up over the past few years. Our big models, like the D9s and scrapers, cost $200.00 and up at retail now. We find that they are just not as viable, especially in the down economy, at those price points. We on the Models and Merchandise Committee are working hard to find ways to make the models less expensively at the same quality level, as we think that is a requirement if we're going to consider selling more of them.

(4) I pretty much covered the forum supporter question in (2) above. I think this capability is among the most important immediate improvement we can make. I'm confident it will be popular, raising some nice funds to keep the lights on while keeping the most enjoyable and attractive functions free to attract new users and potential members.

You should really consider joining our Models and Merchandise Committee or the Magazine and Website Committee. You've got some good ideas and creative thoughts. We could use some help like yours. We have a toll free number which you can use for the dial in meetings. Let us know if you are interested.

Old Magnet, we and Caterpillar have worked on the literature question for a while and will continue to do so. Here again, the size of Caterpillar compared to us is a complicating factor. They are frustrated because the old manuals are a low volume, low profit item for them, so they rightly don't want to devote resources which could be making better money to a project such as that. They are comfortable with us and our interest in maintaining "Cat Quality" for any products we produce, but they are not in a position to provide much financial or time support for this type of project.

I think Mike's idea of using this literature as a benefit in acknowledgment of Club membership or bulletin board support is a better idea than trying to gear up to sell them at retail. Everyone is much more understanding that you don't have the book they want available yet when you are doing it essentially for free, than if you are charging full ride retail for the product and service.

I appreciate your continued support and interest and look forward to continuing the discussion.

Pete.

Thanks for the reply Pete, and thankyou to you and the Board for all your hard work. It sounds to me like the model project has run it's last race for the ACMOC Club, if it is costing us $200,000 for a new model and another Licensee has exclusive distribution rights, I wonder if those rights come up for renewal ever? My local Cat Dealer Store is just a equipment Rental Shop with 2 employees so I've never been inside a proper Cat Store and seen the models on display, I am surprised to hear that the toy prices in China have increased so much because they can still build a D2 size East Wind brand crawler and sell it here in Oz for around $US27,000 retail, and I reckon if you gave them a Best 25 crawler and asked them to reverse Engineer it and build you 100 of them they could knock them out in 5 weeks for about $US6,000 each, though obviously it might not be as durable as the original Best.

As a international member I must say I'm amazed ACMOC can airmail the Club magazine to me here in Australia at such a low cost, and I've often wondered if the real cost of my magazine here in Oz was being subsidized by U.S. subscriptions, I know what I pay the USPS for the Flat Rate Airmail boxes I get sent here by Florin Tractor Parts and others have gone up in cost nearly every year, yet my magazine cost has hardly changed, I'd be happy to pay a extra $5 a year if it meant the difference between ACMOC surviving, or not. I think we all agree the free lunch program got cancelled last Friday, and with 14,000 registered Forum users, that is 11,100 folks enjoying a free ride on the old wagon owned by the 2,900 financial members, sounds like a Democrat deal to me and nice when Treasury is awash with cash, but we are going broke right now. If we can work out a way to get just $1 from each of those 14,000 Forum members, that will give us the $14,000 we need for the computer upgrade, a buck isn't much to ask for is it.

With the Part Book scans my thought is 99.9999% of people potentially accessing that digital download service are not looking for the whole book, but usually a specific area of their tractor so they can get just one or two part numbers quickly and then contact their local Dealer to order the parts, is it possible to keep this concept simple initially, because I can buy those common Parts Number books on Ebay for $US30-$40 most weeks to cover the older D2, D4, D6, D7, D8, but I never use the whole Parts Number book on any of my old Cats, usually just a few pages, and I think most other folks are the same. Additionally, this next generation of kids don't use books at all I notice, everything they need in life comes through a cell phone or hand held tablet, so they like immediate access to tech information in digital format, and are obviously happy to pay $2 or $3 every time they download a "Ap".

I also think the old Tech Sheets generously uploaded by our "A" team players, guys like Old Magnet and Edb, would also be popular in the ACMOC Store as digital downloads or hard copy reprints to far more people than the specific Parts Number books, because I'd estimate of 14,000 Forum Members, and 2,900 Financial Members, only 63 of us around the USA and the world, are actually working on old Cats right now saving them, and so I think the old advertising brochures would be a good item to sell too, in either hard copy or digital form, and would be more popular to a wider group than the Part Number books.

The Operator Instruction Books would also be popular too in my humble opinion, because while I'd estimate only 63 of us around the world are currently working on a old Cat trying to repair or restore her, there are at least 5,000 owner operators just here in Australia with a old Cat in the shed that fires up and runs great every time they need her, but they don't have the original Operator Book any more, and while that may not worry them, it does potentially worry the next generation who will own that machine, and more importantly their Lawyers and Insurance Companies who provide the OH&S Coverage on their property, or business, or School. Liability is a huge issue as we all know, and in 2013 you need to dot the i's and cross the t's when you put a young operator on a old Cat., no matter what the situation.

We, ACMOC and Cat Inc, have a duty of care to provide as much information as possible on the safe operation of these old Cat machines as we can, to protect the next generation of operators and custodians, and I think by making the old orignial Operators Books available at a fair and reasonable cost, and all those wonderful Safety Sheets Cat produced over the years, often in cartoon form, that we, ACMOC, might have the opportunity to make a buck or 3 too, but more importantly, maybe save the life of a child or grandchild, or great grand child of one of our current Members, and I think that is a great concept to run hard with because the investment cost is nickels and dimes, but potential rewards are life saving, and you can bet any of Cat Inc's Lawyers in the USA currently reading my post will agree.

If I got involved in a Committee Pete it would all go pear shaped in a heart beat and I'd be getting a whipping with a willow stick from Garlic Mom every time I came Stateside, because she knows everyone here on this Forum is a lot smarter than me, and I always remember getting told once that a camel was actually a horse that was designed by a Committee, so I've always been a little gun shy with more than one person sitting around a table discussing something that involves my hard earned money:lol:
regards
Mike

PETE your south of where i came from i would rather spend my money for a real cat than a model the clubs cost more than i pay for most of the cats i buy i just 1 member that has trouble with some of the bickering that goes on i quit about 8 yrs back for the same reason and with the way our country is in we need to focus why the club was started the tractor it self and the people that like and rebuild them people that do not have any and post lots of crap all the time really jerks my chain if you want to get on the page and rattle on go some where different lets get back to the tractors and basics and i think we all will be better off get along better but i could be just the odd man out just my 2 bits but if we keep going like we are i for 1 am done with the club it sound like the white house more every day sorry i would hate to lose this but i will go to rtif:banplease:

Model production costs are only the tip of the iceburg. Latest repot shows $544,234 tied up in inventory. I'm assuming that's mostly models.

Please listen to a new non member.I have quite the force of equipment, no cats until recently. An old one in fact. This website has led me to the people and parts sources that have been most helpful to its revival. I have a hard time convincing my wife money spent on this machine will resurface. I will not be getting a model of a 1952 d68u.I have spent 2 months in the we hours of the night reading threads and printing out informative posts. Short of some specific part numbers I have enough information on my machine to write a book. I would definitely purchase an owners/operators manual. I would definitely purchase a part # book for my machine. No models. I owe it to the club to purchase a membership, and will do so when I get another substantial check. Im sure a lot of your members are retired collectors, probably have money to spare on models. I wonder how large the group I fit into is? How about instead of me sourcing all parts for me to rebuild my waterpump, a complete water pump rebuild kit for the most popular models or a main engine top end gasket kit for the popular models? Even if someone doesn't know where to start with their head they know they need the gaskets. A lot of people use Old Magnets conversion information. Many don't have the option for glow plugs. How about a complete block heater setup for the popular models? Fittings, hoses and directions. Seems like this stuff could be bought in bulk reasonably, put together and sold quick because it saves the builder getting all the (small stuff). When I looked at the sites for sale items I was surprised to only see the filler plug wrench. I might get it but ive already made a crude one. Hope hearing from someone in my category helps. <a href="This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it." target="_blank">This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Mike -

Just to be clear, the licensee I mention has the rights to sell models at retail through the dealers. We have the rights to produce and sell models of any machine made by Caterpillar or predecessors which was made forty years ago or older. We can sell them anywhere we want, but if we want to put them where another licensee has the retail rights, we have to do so through them. Basically, we have to work through the retail through the dealer licensee if we want to sell them at the dealer.

I think there is still some meat on the models bone for us, we just have to be careful which models we build and how much we pay to have them built. You are right about the Chinese, part of our problem is volume. It takes them $200,000 to tool up. If we had them make 20,000 models, our per unit cost would be really cheap. We can only make 2,500 of each model, and lately we've only been making 1,250 of each. This restricted volume really cranks up the cost of each unit. I think we can do something about that economic model and we're working on it.

On the cost of international shipping, as the guy who pays the postage bills I can tell you that you are spot on. The domestic memberships are subsidizing the international. We probably need to look at that, particularly as our international membership is increasing now. Some members would complain and we'd probably lose some people because of a dues increase, but it may be time and I think most would understand.

I am really hopeful for the website upgrade because I've often thought the same thing about the bulletin board members versus Club members. I think many of us on here value this resource and would pay a buck or three, reserved for only spending on the website, to keep it going. Getting a banner next to our name as we post is the key, so we recognize those who support and keep the lights on. We'll have that capability soon.

You are also 100% correct about the spec sheets, technical bulletins and operators manuals in addition to the parts books. Maybe we could get our moderators working to harvest that information as it surfaces on the website and add it to our member's area when we get that up and running. If we get a nice, streamlined method for accomplishing that, it shouldn't take too long if done on a daily basis.

Committees often are a bad thing, but they can also be good. One thing I've enjoyed about working within the Club is having a group of really capable people who jump on the seed of a good idea, water and fertilize it and make it grow into something that no single person could accomplish on his own. That is kind of what we do on this bulletin board on a regular basis. Of course, sometimes there is more fertilizer than water and seed, but it works, one way or another.

Thanks for your reply, I always enjoy the discussion with you.

Yancy -

I'm 100% with you. I own one model. It is a treasured possession because it was a gift from a very good friend. If I'm going to spend $200 on something, I'm going to buy a real tractor to restore, or at least a part for a project. The thing we have to recognize is that the cash from the models business, even in its depressed state, is what allows the Club to function. The dues pays for the magazine and website. Without the models and a few other programs, we couldn't afford to collect the dues, publish the magazine or administer any of the other programs the Club runs.

We are looking at getting more into the reproduction parts. We are working hard to put the casting patterns donated by George Logue into use. We continue to work with the manuals issue, the suggestions made here by Mike Meyer give another new direction to that which we hadn't even thought of. We are getting ready to release a grader serial number book which will complement our track type tractor serial number book and become a great resource for the collector.

The hard thing is the economics of the manufacture or purchase, inventorying and shipping of hard parts. They are very expensive to acquire, handle and ship properly. They take a lot of space and personnel, which costs a lot of money. Even now, the models generate $200,000 per year in gross revenue, we pay between $1.00 and $3.00 per unit for inventorying and storage, paid at the time of shipment of the model. We don't touch them, have to store them or pack them for shipment. It is hard to imagine a parts program that can match the economics of that to support our Club.

We will do the reproduction parts, we just can't expect them to become the cash heavyweight supporting Club operations. We all like the quality of service, the support for the scholarships programs, which awarded $7,000 this year and all the other services which are paid for by the models program. I don't have any illusions, though, that the model customers are our core members. There are many Club members who own models, but there are many model owner who don't have tractors, too. We need to make sure that we keep the model customers happy so that the money comes in the door. When the money comes in the door, we can use it to keep the Club members happy with services, products and events that they need for their real tractors. There is overlap, but they are two different constituencies who come together within our Club for mutual benefit.

Old Magnet -

You are exactly right, the $544,000 in inventory is substantially all cost value of models. That accumulated mostly since 2008 when the model sales dropped off but we continued to spend on new models for another couple of years. The $200,000 per introduction cost is a driver, but wouldn't be a problem if sales had kept up with introductions. We've put the brakes on production and economized on costs as much as possible. We're now working on mechanisms to reduce the inventory through sales, freeing up that cash so for operations and future projects.

One of the hard parts about this type of inventory is they are collectibles. Many of our customers are dealers who resell, or model collectors who, at least in part, were counting on the limited production collectible value of their purchase. We can't just have a sale and move the inventory, because we'd be undercutting our good customers who had already bought from us. There are other mechanisms for stimulating sales, though, including finding untapped markets and other channels for sales. We're exploring all of those and hope to see some movement of that inventory out through sales soon.

Monserandsons -

Your feelings are similar to Yancy's and mine. It sounds like Mike's idea of making the parts books, manuals and bulletins available would have good value. I hope the perspective I have offered on the models programs and how the reproduction parts programs could fit into Club operations is helpful. I appreciate your interest and hope to see you on the membership roles soon.

Thank you all for reading and taking the time to comment. This input is really helpful to me as we decide how to respond to our current situation and try to keep the Club on a positive track.

Pete.

Hi Pete, thanks for your positive feedback, I'm sure there have been plenty of times the past couple of years that a good thrashing from Garlic Mom with a Oleander bush switch would have been preferable most days to trying to save ACMOC for it's 2,900 Financial Members when 99% of us never say anything or offer help, I like that saying "Be part of the solution, not part of the problem". I think a lot of folks lose sight of the fact that the Board and Committee Members are all volunteers with real jobs in the real world.

I appreciate you clarifying the model Licensing Agreement, that is better than I originally thought, because if ACMOC continue to produce the antique tractor models that does not conflict with the newer product models currently being sold through Cat. Inc. Dealer Stores by the other Licensee, in fact I would think the ACMOC models would dovetail in perfectly with that companies distribution and invoicing infrastructure.

My suggestion is raise the retail price of the ACMOC models so that both we, ACMOC, and the other Licensee can make a reasonable buck, and instead of selling 300- 500 models out of a run just through our magazine, Forum and occasional Trade Show we might actually start selling 5,000 through the Cat. Inc. Dealer Stores, it's all about exposure in the market place isn't it. I will suggest though that ACMOC Financial Members be offered those models at a "discounted" price, kind of inline with your current retail price, so that for ACMOC Members there is a real advantage to paying those annual membership fees, the "discount" will only apply to non commercial quantities, like a maximum of 2. As they used to say with those American Express adverts on TV, "Membership does have it's privileges", and in my opinion it is time the 2,900 Financial Members saw additional benefits over and above the 11,000 Forum Members who contribute nothing to help cover the annual cost of running ACMOC.
Regards
Mike

Mike ,When i read the Minutes in the members area ,it was my understanding that the agreement with Cat for making models is that it is limited to 2500 models Per tractor .If you read what Pete had said ,if they could make 20000 models the cost per would be substantially less ..
Your suggestion that the retail price be lifted to make the extra profit ????? Hello , they can't shift them at the present price How is increasing the price going to help .How do they then go on to sell 5000 of them at these higher prices when there is only 2500 limit to build.
To me it is the same with the parts donated to the club
There are manifolds ,that Rosewoods are also making .Rosewoods pay to advertise in the club magazine .Are Rosewood going to pull their advertising dollars from the club .
The side covers ,Already people out there making these to .
It is a limited market .These parts would not have been gathering dust unsold if the demand was there .

Here is an idea every tractor need seat . Why doesn't the club go into direct compertiton with John Hann .
How about knocking out some 30 and 60 parts to get some of George Rankins market share .
.
.
Not a good idea ?
After reading of Jim Zimmerman now sending bins of parts off to scrap ,Seems the parts idea i put forward a while ago is non viable too .
.
I wonder how many club members that are members for the models are going to rethink their membership now they see there is no likely-hood of a new model any time soon ..
If the club is now a charity , how about it just gets out of the of the business of selling merchandise.
No stuff to sell ,no need for staff . Put Three dollars on the the dues .2900 members at $3 is $8700 .That covers the $7500 given out each year . Reduce the Quality of the Magazine paper ,After all , it is read once then put up on a shelf and basically forgotten about . Makes more sense than going broke selling models .

Not sure rising the price on the models is going to help. If they are not selling great due to the times that we are in than why would they sell better at a higher price and different money spread to other groups. I can't get enough of these old Caterpillar machines and the shows that I take them to:thumb: But that's It I fell most people want the real things not a model and as any new collector finds out what it cost to fix these machines the right way and how hard it is to have just 1 or 2 even 5 machines:lol: who wants to spend big bucks on something that sit's on the shelve and collects dust when the can apply the money to the machine in there shop.
I know there are a lot of collectors on this site that have huge model collection and large crawler collection too. The fact is that most of these people put theses collections together years ago when you could find a nice narrow Cat Ten for 500.00 to 1,000 all there barn fresh and the models were a quarter the price. Those's days are gone. I myself a younger collector I am going to buy machines and not models as I think most will also do. If you were to start remaking parts to some extent ( baby steps ) on this as I know tooling up is $$$ but it will pay of in the end. This hobby is so costly to start by the time you get a truck and trailer then you buy more machines and you need more of the trucks and trailers to move them or if you can't then you have to decide what ones go to the show THAT'S HARD:thumb: I really feel the models are a dead end if you want a higher then last profit, year after year. Not really sure what the best road is to go down is. Only trying to speak for younger collectors that want to buy real Caterpillars and get dirty bringing a old machine back to her glory in stead of have a really yellow and grey shelve in there house:thumb: