"Mike wrote:

Mike. Knowing you have a sense of humor, I trust Eddie's surgery is not life threatening. Eddie, if you're listening, we're keeping you in our thoughts and prayers and hoping for your speedy recovery.

Hi Mike, I'm assuming Eddie is OK as I see he is visiting ACMOC most days, and yes, it was my pathetic humor at play again.

I agree with your post Mike, thanks for taking the time to chime in, I am surprised we have folks now taking aim at Old Magnet and myself for daring to start this discussion and keep it running, seems to me we Financial Members are finally having the discussion the Club should have had 5 years ago and nailed the drift into toy manufacture that is now likely to bankrupt ACMOC, we are simply a independent group of nice folks saving old Cats, Holts and Bests for future generations at our own expense, but somehow we have morphed into a Marketing Division of Cat Inc without the salary or perks.
regards
Mike

Observations and questions.

1. As a user of this board and a past paying Member who let his renewal expire, I have renewed my Membership for three years. Not suggesting that for everyone or anyone, just realizing my participation on the receiving end of a lot of thoughtful information has a cost to "The Board". I have other thoughts on this, but hard to articulate. In essence a counter argument would be, '...I'm not paying for some cobbled up mess of a board / forum...'. My response would be, OK...don't. It is pretty functional for where I am, so I am OK to pay. Note I do not let go of $3 per month lightly especially when I think of all the Genuine CAT parts I can buy with $3.

2. Models are fine-If one that particularly interests me was marketed for say less than $100, I would probably purchase. That led me to think that there are probably a lot of folks 'here' that are not hard core collectors of CAT, but admire the machine and can dabble as they wish and would find having one of their machines in model kinda nice. So...build what the market demands. Maybe that comes in the form of a questionaire...maybe produce based on most common machine owned, or most uncommon. Maybe have tiers of model's relative to quality and tooling expense and build out two for sale, for instance a D2 and a D4 (2T of course ). Reduction in risk expand market base lower unit costs. Test the more inexpensive ones and move up from there.

3. I suggest not relegating the magazine to an on-line version. Really a turn off for the most of us. Hard to prop your feet up with a notebook or laptop and feel the pages turning. I am in another organization of historically older men and always a lot of grumbling with an online version of our publication. Dues increases to cover postage and processing would still probably be preferred for a hard copy.

4. Ignorance here, but my guess is that the BOD is for the most part an expense for the individual directors with none or little compensation. Most of us likely serve in some capacity of sorts in volunteer organizations, so I am not making excuses just stating a fact that these ventures take time and effort and at the end of the day some things need to give. Not a popular idea, I am sure, but it is a reality. The BOD certainly involve themselves for the stated goals of the Club, so I am anticipating none desire or would accept compensation. Burnout on these volunteer positions is a reality.

5. Along the lines of #4, considering the annual gross dollars this Club turns around, has it graduated to a point of having an Executive Director? Not a 'blue ribbon committee', or place holder, but someone knowledgeable in the arena of Caterpillar restoration and resurrection who can promote the goals of the club with institutional knowledge that will at some point span over several years. Nothing against the current staff, directors, etc. but once an organization gets to a size, a consistent hand at the controls becomes necessary. Base salary plus a percentage based on profits in sales. There is a benefit in having someone consistently representing your interests. Of course they better have a thick skin...

6. Can the Board survive on only Membership Dues based on expenses only incurred by upkeep of the Board, including say the staff necessary to manage it and process Memberships, etc. If it can, maybe stand back, figure handling and holding costs of the models in stock and offer them at cost. Move them and begin that program over again. Operating at a deficit will require a come to Jesus moment. The trick is to manage the time and place best as best can be.

7. I was not around with the Club formed or when models became available. My guess is that the models were conceived to promote the goals of the Club and not the other way around. Most folks come to the Board / Forum to see what others are tinkering with; view some pictures of projects; ask advice; and offer assistance. Very few posts have anything to do with the ACMOC Store. It sounds like I am a downer on the models, refer to # 2 above, I'm not. I do get a sense from many in this thread that the models have become the tail wagging the dog. Bob the tail-cut losses and regain a sense of why 'we' are here.

8. I appreciate this medium and enjoy this Board. I've never spent a half hour reading or viewing and walked away having not learned anything. Frankly, the odds and ends I have done on my machine are things I am proud of even though the list continues. I'm in no hurry I guess, which is way out of my wheel house under normal circumstances. The damn D42T gives me a 'can-do' attitude in an area I had no idea that I had an interest in. Interactions on this Board, (and others), helps that along. Thank you.

9. There are personal relationships with persons on this Board that are real as far as I can tell. This is a thread that binds people together, you can see that in the banter and compliments regarding other's machines and accomplishments.

10. Ask what has happened to some of the people who used to frequent the Forum? Why are they gone? I went back to 2006, near the time I started here, and noted some of the names that no longer chatter. Some passed I am sure; some have been banned for whatever reason; some lost interest or $$$ in the restoration lifestyle. Is there a way to spark interest again.

Best to all,
Bernie

Thanks for your post Bernie, it is good folks like you who make up 99.9% of our genuine ACMOC family and we are all on much the same journey.

I'd definitely support a motion that we compensate our Directors a modest annual stipend, say $US1,500 per year, plus out of pocket expenses, to in some small way say thankyou for going the extra yard, this Company is going broke and we need good candidates to step up to the plate and turn the ship around, in any case I know the current Directors are not here for the money.

I also think we need to compensate the core people like Old Magnet and edb who will make our new Technical Library run by generously uploading and filing sheets from their own private collections for our benefit, which I suspect will take them potentially hundreds of hours, because these private collections have a real dollar value worth tens of thousands of dollars, and in my opinion ACMOC needs to ensure only those people prepared to help finance this Technical Library get to access those sheets. I'd suggest ACMOC pay Old Magnet and edb at least $750 per year, plus out of pocket expenses to help offset the enormous contribution these gentlemen are making for our benefit.

If anyone disagrees, try buying just a few of these Tech Sheets on Ebay , or through reprint companies and see how far $100 goes, nowhere, but more importantly, if these Sheets save one persons life from this point on, and they will, particularly the Operator Safety sheets, then $1,500 a year is petty cash. Just ask Cat Inc's hundreds of Lawyers how much Cat spend each year defending the Company against Operator Injury claims, it would be millions I suspect, and a donation from Cats Insurance providors of say $100,000 a year to ACMOC for making these sheets available would be Chump Change, less than a days golf at Pebble Beach for 30 Corporate Lawyers.

I suggest current Financial ACMOC Members get full access privileges to that new Technical Library, and that a second membership group be created called simply "ACMOC FORUM MEMBERSHIP" with a more modest Annual Membership Fee of say $25 that will allow those people to access and download the Technical Sheets too but no magazine, HOWEVER, I think that access to that Technical Library be denied to all others EXCEPT on a User Pays system, where a person pays say $2.50 per page to download specific Tech Sheets.
Regards
Mike

Hi Mike,
Your getting pretty generous there, I'm not looking for any money. What I spend on manuals and the time I spend organizing and posting is a gift to the hobby but I agree, I'm not interested in supporting Caterpillar, Inc.

I see where edb is somewhat limited in retirement funds so maybe the least that can be done is offer a few free payed memberships to those that contribute.

"Old wrote:

Hi Mike,
Your getting pretty generous there, I'm not looking for any money. What I spend on manuals and the time I spend organizing and posting is a gift to the hobby but I agree, Im not interested in supporting Caterpillar, Inc.

I see where edb is somewhat limited in retirement funds so along with your offer I'd suggest maybe a few free memberships to those that contribute would be most welcome.

Ok, Ok Pete, I'm listening and the customer is always right, how about a free coffee and a iced donut once a month for you and your buddy Tractor Don, and $750 a year plus expenses to Eddie?
regards
Mike

Lost that Buddy, he moved to "nowhere Nevada" and don't hear much from him anymore. I believe he is another one of many that have vanished from the BB.

Sorry, I was editing my post while you were typing.

"Old wrote:

Lost that Buddy, he moved to "nowhere Nevada" and don't hear much from him anymore. I believe he is another one of many that have vanished from the BB.

Must be the rough crowd you attract Pete, he seemed like a real nice guy the day you and I had lunch together in 2011, maybe once he met me he figured ACMOC really was screwed?

Mike Walsh - your thoughts and comments are good ones.

On the unrelated business income issue, let me say I had nothing to do with the audit of the 2004 tax return. You can thank past President Jeff Huff and, I believe, some significant efforts from George W. Howard on that front. I was not involved at the time. I can tell you that our position for current returns is sound. Our allocation strategies are supported by a Private Letter Ruling and by the examination findings resulting from the 2004 returns. We did have a limited inquiry of certain payroll tax issues related to the 2009 tax return. This inquiry was generated as part of a random sample to gather compliance statistics, and not because of any items of concern on our return. During that inquiry, however, we were asked about our unrelated business income and the allocation strategies for revenues and costs. We provided complete responses and our approach and methodology were once again confirmed as correct.

Most of your comments, and much of the discussion here, center around whether we are a restoration and preservation Club, or we are a model business. I draw the conclusion from your comments and you feel the models tail is wagging the restoration and preservation dog. It also appears to me that you and many others have written off the existing business models and structures and feel we should start with a clean slate. Many participants in this discussion seem to agree.

My perspective is a little different than yours. I agree that the models are the tail. I don't feel that it is wagging the dog, however. Granted the models take some time and attention. They also, however, even today, generate large volumes of cash which subsidize the rest of the dog. We are used to dues in the range of $3.00 per month. For those dues, we are used to receiving a top flight, four color, well edited magazine. Granted the content could be better, a little more, or maybe a lot more, technical. We also receive a nice little website, nothing too exciting, an online store and a selection of Club merchandise for those who like that, and a great bulletin board where we can waste a lot of time and get a lot of help.

If we cut away the tail and abandoned the model program, we would not have the money to administer memberships, collect dues and perform the fundamental operations necessary to operate the Club. Assuming an all volunteer workforce, we need probably $10,000 per year to handle the supplies, pay the postage, maintain a basic database of members so we know who to mail the magazine to and when to stop sending it. We also need about $110,000 per year to publish, print and mail those magazines. We also need about $8,000 per year to maintain the website and bulletin board, ignoring upgrades and other stuff which will come up once in a while.

That puts our basic Club costs to operate, bare bones, no projects, no improvements, no support for restoration or preservation besides the magazine and website as they stand now at $128,000 per year, or about $42.00 per member per year. We would have no prospects for improvement, no staff to answer telephone calls or questions, no merchandise to sell, no ability to have national shows, local events or special events like the Members' Event we had in Peoria last April. I would contend that picture is the one with the Club circling the drain.

Instead, if we keep the tail on the dog, accept some diversion and consumption of resources, we can have all of the above, plus periodic improvements to the website, magazine, make or buy merchandise and make it available to the members, hold local and national events, foster development of local Chapters, and even have models available for those members and non-members who wish to buy them.

This year the models will have contributed $100,000 over and above membership dues. The models are the only reason we have a cash reserve of over $150,000 now, and another $550,000 in current assets which will turn back into cash, sooner or later. The models program has generated over $3.5 million in gross revenue for this Club since its inception. Much of that was reinvested to make more models and other merchandise, another significant amount was spent on other programs, improvements to the magazine or website and a lot was spent on basic Club operations. I won't argue that we probably spent more on administration and operations than we should in some years back in the high times before 2008. I don't feel, though that we were irresponsible though, either.

You and I are holding hands on the fact that what is best for the Club is absolutely not the same as what is best for Caterpillar, Inc. We are also in complete agreement that the models are an unrelated business interest, both from a tax standpoint and from a strategic standpoint. The models business is a true business which we run to benefit our members through improved cash flows which subsidize our core business.

As long as we maintain the Caterpillar name in the name of our organization, we will be beholden to Caterpillar, Inc., as they own that name and can relinquish our license to use it any time they like. That doesn't mean that we cow tow to them, but we do have to be considerate of their desires. We could abandon the models program and the name, but I would contend that at that point we would be circling the drain even faster.

I think all of us members need to be clear about what our business model is, why and how we get the resources we enjoy, and what are realistic ways to move from where we are to where we want to be. Cutting off the models and the name is not a viable business plan and it is difficult to see how we could make it one.

I'm all for making sure that we don't lose sight of the goal because of the models. I'm also all for finding other sources of revenue to support our operations. I'd even be happy abandoning the models and the name, if we had a way to keep the Club viable and vital. Someone needs to come up with the cash flow, though, or find a way to operate more leanly than we do, so that inflows balance outflows and there is enough operations left to attract people and keep the Club alive.

On the discounted parts issue, you have once again hit the nail squarely on the head. Caterpillar doesn't need to offer discounts, they sell plenty of parts already. We have talked about this concept with them, they don't want to impose a discount on their dealers, nor do they want to subsidize the discount. Even if they did want to do that, we would need to develop a way to identify our members so they could qualify for the discount. The best idea for that so far is to provide membership cards, which cost around $1.00 each, have to be imprinted, sorted, inserted into the proper magazine for mailing on an annual basis, or have to be mailed separately to each member, incurring extra postage. For 3,000 members, you're talking about another $3,000 to $6,000 in additional cost for a very limited return. We're working on this, and probably will find a solution, but it hasn't appeared yet.

It is fine to want to eliminate the tail, just recognize the other parts that go with it if we don't replace that tail with something else. I believe that there are ways to stay in the models business, make it more profitable and also buy us some time to shift strategies so that we can in a careful, reasoned manner, develop other sources of income to support our operations. I don't think that it is time to abandon ship, but if I'm wrong and you're right, we will become a very unattractive Club in the very short term after those changes are made.

Pete.

Has anyone discussed ACMOC applying for Grants, seems most Not for Profit groups here in Australia get a part of their funding by applying and being awarded Grants.

Just 2 weeks ago I drove past a beautiful new Historical Farming Museum in a small town in rural Australia that cost a million dollars or more to build that was funded largely by the McCormick Trust in America, as in the McCormick Tractor Family Trust, and I think the Museum was called the McCormick Historical Museum, seems they have millions of dollars sitting in funds which they allocate to appropriate causes each year around the world particularly where their tractors were used.

I'm not suggesting ACMOC ask the McCormick Trust for funds, that would be a bit cheeky I think, but there must be hundreds of Grants available in the USA from Public and Private organisations to support the preservation of farming or engineering or construction machinery, perhaps even Cat Inc have such a program running?

regards
Mike

Hi Team,
thank you all for your kind thoughts, prayers and wishes, they are much appeciated.
I am doing OK now. Had an old farts rebore some 10 weeks ago and my stupid body decided to heal over the bladder to urethra opening.
Went and had an op to reopen said tube. Surgeon said only happens in 5% of cases ! Hopefully all is well now for the future.

Further To OM's wonderful suggested list of titles/headings/folders for the Tech Library I submit, for interest sake, what Cat used back in the 50's and 60's for a Master Index to Service Publications.
This was the forerunner to Cat's SIS ( Service Information retrieval System) currently used, or was when I retired some 9 years ago.
Master Index 1 is the first style of front page and 2 is the later expanded second style front page.
Not as detailed as OM's submission for sure, just submitted for interest now. I intended to do it yesterday but the time difference to Downunder is sometimes a problem--it seems at times OM does not sleep

Another thought is that most of the commonly posted literature and photos I have posted in answer to requests is stored on my Attachments file or, what ever it is called, on this BB and only gets added to as needed when something else comes up.
I guess that means that the most commonly asked questions have some form of answer data stored in this File.

It would surely be accessable to moderators or whom ever is compiling the Tech Library etc. for selection and download to appropriate sections of the said Tech. Library.
I have no objection to my data on here being used and will add as time goes on as needed. This stuff needs to be stored and shared in other than my book shelves or brain while it is available.

I have PTSD issues and do not really want to be involved in any of this short of supplying data as needed.
Part of what I see as therapy for me is to be here reading what others are up to in the restoration scene, flings, and the like as well as supplying data or advice if I think I have something from my past experience that may be of benefit to the enquirer.
I was forced onto committies in past life and do not want to be part of it.

Enough for now.
Cheers,
Eddie B.